07-06-2003 00:24									#61
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what is "sweet fa"?

	07-06-2003 00:35									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy From my POV, I've only heard 2 thirds of the story - one third from the Brits who pulled out in 47, one third from the bedoiun Arabs (NOT the pals but their cousins so to speak) and, to be honest, sweet fa from the Israeli side. I thought Israel was not supposed to be a Jewish only state? I'm going to have to think about this one. Keep posting folks.

israel is not a jewish only state - one fifth of its population is non-jewish, including arab muslims and christians (mostly non -beduin) and Druze. they have full rights to vote, and are legally full citizens, though arabs who are not Druze are exempted from army service. Informally they face discrimination, much like minorities in many parts of the world - the extent a matter of debate - they have cultural autonomy - arab language schools - which can represent a real benefit, but also can hide discrimination, since they are not seen as part of the mainstream culture or society.

While Israel has from the beginning had civil rights for all, it was founded as a Jewish state - to some this meant simply a place where the right of Jews to immigrate was guaranteed, and to others it meant the state should play in active role in Jewish culture and religion. Given that most of the arab minority was hostile to the states existence, and the to the goal of free jewish immigration, the state took an active role in strengthening the jewish demographic presence in strategic areas like the Galilee.

In the late '90s several factor combined to cause israelis to question the jewish nature of the state - 1 the apparent accomplishment of peace meant it was safer to treat the arab minority as genuinely full citizens 2. The collapse of the USSR meant there were hardly any oppressed Jewish populations needed refuge. 3. The migration from the soviet union included relatives and others who were technically and religiously not jewish, but who assimilated to Hebrew speaking mainstream society, and could not be considered a culturally autonomous minority like the arabs

Some began to see a growing conflict between being a "jewish state" and a "state for all its citizens" while some came down on one side or the other, many continued trying to "square the circle"

With the collapse of the peace process this whole issue kinda went on hold - though the issue of the soviets remains.

Some would resolve it by changing the defintion of jewish from a religious one that admits jews by birth or religious conversion, to a cultural definition that would allow for "secular conversion" by those commited to Hebrew language and Jewish culture - which would probably be taken by many of the "non-jewish" russians, thought not by the arabs.

However this would in some ways be even more threatening to religious jews than would be a state that completely disavowed Jewishness.

	07-06-2003 00:39									#63
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did it ever cross your american fascist mind that he was not reinventing an english word but a german word that was then copied by the english? you know, those latin originated words exist in german too

	07-06-2003 00:39									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel what is "sweet fa"?

A very rude term that I should not have used. f is the f word and a is for all.

so "sweet fa" = nix, nothing, nada.

	07-06-2003 00:41									#65
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and stop talking middle east

	07-06-2003 00:42									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion did it ever cross your american fascist mind that he was not reinventing an english word but a german word that was then copied by the english? you know, those latin originated words exist in german too

Do they? Why? It's not like the Roman's had much success over the Rhine, is it?

Look, just pardon my ignorance, please? I've been blaming the source, when I should really be blaming the morons who introduced a NONSENSICAL term into the English language. As this is an English languge thread, you can understand my confusion.

And that's BRITISH moderate. The British fascists are far nastier than I am.

	07-06-2003 00:44									#67
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I wish people would stop always accusing Germans of the most evil of all crimes possible in any situation. In this case, someone considered some word definitions and you accuse him of invading your language. Just what have I done to you to deserve this

and stop talking middle east

	07-06-2003 00:45									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion did it ever cross your american fascist mind that he was not reinventing an english word but a german word that was then copied by the english? you know, those latin originated words exist in german too

echtelion

i never said he was reinventing an english word - cruddy did - and hes not american, iiuc. So it must be his "english fascist" mind

in fact iw was the copying by english speakers that added to the confusion. IIUC in german such a word is not hyphnated, but run together - when english and american jew haters copied it, they naturally introduced a hyphen. The american practice of omitting the hyphen to change the emphasis of the word, is one you were unlikely to know about, and wouldnt make a hell of a lot of sense to a german speaker, i suppose. So naturally by parallel formation to most "Anti- " words you included the hyphen. I was merely pointing out some english usage issues.

I meant to correct Cruddy about how the word entered english, but his other questions seemed more pressing to me.

Ok, now???

	07-06-2003 00:46									#69
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next you'll drop a nuclear bomb because someone tells a joke in German that doesn't quite translate well into English and therefore must be a bad joke to you, thus a sign for a German attempt to flood the world with absurdity.

	07-06-2003 00:48									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion and stop talking middle east

sorry - but by discussing the death of man who was considered an anti-semite, in part for his statements about German Jews, but also for his views on the middle east, it was easy for the topic to come up. Id be happy to take this elsewhere, but I think Cruddys questions deserve answers, and i think they may of interest to others.

	07-06-2003 00:49									#71
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Oh no Ecthelion. We can take a joke. We (certainly I) make enough bad jokes every day.

And I've already begged forgiveness - refresh your page to view my edits, OK?

	07-06-2003 00:50									#72
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looking at the essays presented by some people here - no, this is not about Möllemännchen vs. Friedmännchen anymore.

	07-06-2003 00:50									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion next you'll drop a nuclear bomb because someone tells a joke in German that doesn't quite translate well into English and therefore must be a bad joke to you, thus a sign for a German attempt to flood the world with absurdity.

well if anyone wanted to site german attempts to flood the world with absurdity, i suppose they could come up with better examples - like certain late idealist philosophy - talk about not translating well into english

And im not talking about Hegel - i like hegel (see my column on civ2 and hegel)

	07-06-2003 00:53									#74
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you got me with too little blood in my alcohol

	07-06-2003 00:54									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion looking at the essays presented by some people here - no, this is not about Möllemännchen vs. Friedmännchen anymore.

no its not - but cruddy raised serious questions, and i answered them.

and its not the first time a thread has taken a new direction on this board - it certainly wasnt the kind of deliberate threadjacking one sometimes sees.

Why so sensitive??

	07-06-2003 00:56									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion you got me with too little blood in my alcohol

you mean you dont like to talk philosophy when youre drunk

	07-06-2003 00:57									#77
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I'm not sensitive about threadjacks, I do it all the time, even deliberately!

BTW, maybe Rummy-Don should have committed suicide 20 years after the first real peak in his career, too. Would have spared us some warmongering.

	07-06-2003 00:58									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Do they? Why? It's not like the Roman's had much success over the Rhine, is it? .

no, but the catholic church did. Latin was the written language of catholic europe till the end of the middle ages, and for some fields, well beyond.

	07-06-2003 00:59									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion I'm not sensitive about threadjacks, I do it all the time, even deliberately! BTW, maybe Rummy-Don should have committed suicide 20 years after the first real peak in his career, too. Would have spared us some warmongering.

yadda, yadda.

	07-06-2003 00:59									#80
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I caught a warmonger

	07-06-2003 01:04									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion I caught a warmonger

whatever, dude.

	07-06-2003 01:07									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion I caught a warmonger

Great, now kick his teeth in. You'll feel a lot better for it. Then if you feel sorry you can bandage him.

LOTM, it seems my hypothetical "IF I was Anti-Isreali" has scared them all away. It seems one can't even ask some questions without being made a pariah.

Oh well, there's always tomorrow. Wonder what they're scared of? Me? Or a few unpleasant home truths?

Not that the UK doesn't have a STACK of unpleasant home truths.

	07-06-2003 01:35									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Great, now kick his teeth in. You'll feel a lot better for it. Then if you feel sorry you can bandage him. LOTM, it seems my hypothetical "IF I was Anti-Isreali" has scared them all away. It seems one can't even ask some questions without being made a pariah. Oh well, there's always tomorrow. Wonder what they're scared of? Me? Or a few unpleasant home truths? Not that the UK doesn't have a STACK of unpleasant home truths.

i hope my essays helped. rather than pursue it further here, i would suggest you read more, if you want something more in depth. Id recommend Howard Sachars history of israel, thats pretty in depth IIRC. Nadav Shafran is good, i cant think who else for israeli history off the top of my head. For current events id suggest haaretz - the english language website of one of israels leading newspapers i would go look for the URL, but its under the mideast full coverage section on yahoo. They tend to represent the dovish/leftist side of israeli opinion, but still very much an israeli and zionist view.

	07-06-2003 01:42									#84
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OK, will read up and see if I can find a clearer path before rushing in again.

Echtelion, I have never met a German yet who wasn't generous, thoughtful and intelligent. Usually pretty fond of beer as well. So don't think I've spent my entire life on this crowded island, OK?

As for antisemite, it's a word I never use, because in English it just doesn't make sense. But I won't go blaming any Germans for its bad use in English, OK?