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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:28
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Okay, this is a military plan designed by myself in the chat a few hours ago. I bounced the initial idea off of the people in there, and they liked it, so I've decided to post it. The plan is in case we were to initiate a war against CDG.
Goal:
To deliver a crippling blow to CDG and its armies.
Timeframe:
Hopefully sometime after we become a Republic. Must have a significant enough army to enact the plan and time enough to build a fairly large navy.
OOB:
Army Group A: 12+ Swordsmen, 6 or so NMs. Located along the southern border with CDG in two stacks.
Army Group B: 3-4 Swordsmen, 6-7 Horsemen, 2+ NMs (maybe more), 5+ Galleys. Located in Horse City.
Home Defense: All the rest of the units we have, mainly NMs. 
There would be 3 main phases.
Phase 1:
Our main Swordsman army "Army Group A" races south towards the CDG border cities. All sorts of noise, pomp and circumstance. This force contains about 80% of our total Swordsmen and perhaps 40% of our total NMs in two different stacks. The first stack is our "initial shock" stack, which would contain between 60 and 70% of our units heading south from our cities. Its main purpose is to attract the attention of CDG. The second smaller stack would stay behind the first, outside of sight range so CDG doesn't see it. This stack's main purpose is to support the first stack in case it runs into trouble.
CDG will see this and races north with its main immortal army to destroy our stack heading south. In case we run into their main army, the first stack will slow down and join up with the support stack, hopefully giving us a numerical advantage in case a big battle occurs.
Phase 2:
Sometime near this another force "Army Group B" will be assembled in Horse City. It will include ~ 5 Galleys, 3-4 Swordsmen, 6-7 Horsemen and 2 NMs. It's first mission will be to capture the chokepoint in the west. It will take 4 or 5 turns to get from Horse City to the chokepoint, though we could have this force moving before we declare war and open hostilities begin. Army Group B will land near the chokepoint, and capture it. The Galleys will remain out of site so that CDG doesn't know we have them. We may need to bring along a Settler with this force, in case the CDG city has no culture/is at size 1 and would be auto-razed. Once the chokepoint is secure, Army Group B would re-embark on the Galleys (another force could be sent to garrison the chokepoint if necessary), then move down through the large lake towards CDG's homeland along the west coast of the sub-continent. It will take 3 turns to reach it from the chokepoint, and we can land adjacent to the CDG capital or 2 tiles away (to prevent immediate counter-attack on our stack by units in their city). The turn after we land we can hit the city with all the Horsemen we have, and with 6 or 7 Horsemen we should be able to capture Elucidium. We could possibly have another Galley scouting forward, but it's vital that none of the Galleys are seen until the turn they land the units next to the CDG capital.
The idea now is that CDG will have its main army off far to the north to fight Army Group A, while we come around from behind to attack their weak flank with Army Group B. If the mission is successful, CDG will only have one turn to move units in/near Elucidium into the city before we're able to strike it with the brunt of Army Group B.
The risk we run is if a significant portion of their army still remains inside or near their capital, and we're unable to defeat this army in Army Group B's first wave (no chance to heal those units) to capture the city.
Phase 3:
This accomplished, CDG will be without its only production center. All it will have left will be weak jungle cities. More NMs could possibly be ferried towards the city pending an inevitable CDG counter-attack. Army Group A will continue its march southwards, hoping to meet up with Army Group B for a final battle to destroy the Elucidian army.
Other Stuff:
For this plan to succeed, it's absolutely vital that CDG doesn't spot any of our Galleys at any time before we land Army Group B next to their capital. It's also vital that they move their main army away from their capital towards Army Group A to prevent a disastrous counter-attack upon AGB.
Why is this better than an all-out rush with all of our units coming from the north?
Their capital is their only source of iron and their only significant production center. With its loss, CDG loses its ability to produce all units, its infrastructure will be wrecked and their homeland devastated. CDG will lose the war if we hold onto this city.
It also provides a "shock effect." What do you think would be going through CDG's mind if we capture their capital and only good city before a significant battle has even been fought between our main stacks? They'll then have to choose to push forward to fight Army Group A and try to hit our cities (highly doubtful), or race head-over-heels back home and try to recapture their capital in what is bound to be a disastrously disorganized counter-offensive. We can crush them between our two armies when they approach AGB in Elucidium without having to fight large battles capturing cities which genereate enormous numbers of casualties. If AGB has too much trouble holding Elucidium, then we can simply disband the city and have AGB retreat off to the north-west.
Why is this better than landing on the east coast?
All sites on the east coast are at least 4+ turns (best case scenario) away from CDG's capital/iron, which is the only significant target to aim for with a large naval invasion. Landing an amphibious invasion force just for the hell of it with the goal of capturing Zagiwhozit or Goatcity will not gain us anything significant. Capturing their capital will win us the war.
In addition, if things don't go completely smoothly, an invasion force on the east coast could easily get bogged down and become completely ineffective. It would lack the "shock effect" of a swift 1-turn strike on their capital. It would have no ability to retreat aside from re-embarking on the Galleys. If AGB in my plan has any trouble, it could escape off to the north-west. If CDG really felt threatened by our landing, then it would have enough time to withdraw its army back to its main core to deal with us. We would then have dig them out of their cities. Trying to hit a city when an enemy has 10 Immortals waiting for you to move adjacent to the city is... not fun. 
Why is it better than [insert idea here]?
It may not be. But I think it's a pretty darn good plan. So suggest ideas which you think may be superior to this, any flaws you see in the plan or other things you would like to point out.
Last edited by Trip on 06-06-2003 at 11:09
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:28
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I have only just read this and can't consult the save, so I don't think I will be able to devote as much time to this as it deserves, but here are my initial thoughts.
It is a bold tactic based on what I consider some sound premises (at least for the time being) - the capital will be their only real asset and the chokepoint will not be defended well enough to sustain the siege proposed. If CDG is comfortable with GCA or they are even allied against us/CFC, then I see no reason why CDG would not send most of their troops north to meet us, trusting that they have a friend to the south.
HOWEVER, we must consider the possibility that CDG will leave some decent number of their troops in the capital because it is such a vulnerable target and GCA is so close. This plan requires more than just preventing them from seeing our Galleys - we should do whatever we can to make sure CDG does not even find out we MIGHT have Mapmaking. We plan for the worst, and surely we can't expect them to overlook (underlook?) the possibility we have built Galleys.
The one thing I baulk at a little is the number of Galleys we need. I have not looked at the build queues, but we will need to answer the question of whether we can build enough Galleys whilst building up the army to go on them in time.
This is where potential war between GCA and CFC plays to our advantage. If GCA is involved elsewhere, CDG might decide to strike at their neighbour with decent land, and other concerns. Even if not, GCA may well try and involve CDG in the war, drawing troops away.
As a plan for the future (30+ turns) this has a lot of promise. Some of these things we can work out in detail now, many we need to have some flexibility with in case of changes over that time.
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Dominae
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With GCA to think about, I doubt CDG will rush all their units out to meet our forces (stack A) in the field. They'll play defensivly, taking out our units with their Immortals when we walk up to their fortifications. The chokepoint could be an easy target, sure, but you cannot assume the rest will be a cakewalk.
My problem with this plan is that it requires a lot of resources (5 Galleys!) but is basically operating on a hunch. If CDG does not blindly strike out like you assume they'll do (or if they actually get some help for GCA...), we've wasted a lot of time. We may just find that their "undefended capital" is actually tougher to take than we think. You're assuming they're dumb enough not to realise why we took the chokepoint by sea with 5 Galleys instead of by land (where most of our other forces are, anyway...come to think of it, it would be better to hide the Galleys until the chokepoint is secure). The whole operation will probably end up as a long, hard and bitter offensive, nothing like the neat efficient warfare we would like to use in order to stay competitive with our neighbors.
I'm the only one who holds this opinion, but here goes (again): we should fight a defensive war against CDG, not an offensive one.
Dominae
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
With GCA to think about, I doubt CDG will rush all their units out to meet our forces (stack A) in the field. They'll play defensivly, taking out our units with their Immortals when we walk up to their fortifications. The chokepoint could be an easy target, sure, but you cannot assume the rest will be a cakewalk.
My problem with this plan is that it requires a lot of resources (5 Galleys!) but is basically operating on a hunch. If CDG does not blindly strike out like you assume they'll do (or if they actually get some help for GCA...), we've wasted a lot of time. We may just find that their "undefended capital" is actually tougher to take than we think. You're assuming they're dumb enough not to realise why we took the chokepoint by sea with 5 Galleys instead of by land (where most of our other forces are, anyway...come to think of it, it would be better to hide the Galleys until the chokepoint is secure). The whole operation will probably end up as a long, hard and bitter offensive, nothing like the neat efficient warfare we would like to use in order to stay competitive with our neighbors.
I'm the only one who holds this opinion, but here goes (again): we should fight a defensive war against CDG, not an offensive one.
Dominae |
hi ,
true , but then again how long shall it take for the galleys to reach them if we hide them , ....
they should leave first and drop the troops in the rear , while at the same time we attack by land from the front , ....
a couple galleys should stick around to sink any naval units they might come up with , .....
have a nice day
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dejon
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Dominae raises sound points.
Even if we manage to ensure that their units don't see our galleys, that is not to say that they won't suspect or guess at their existence.
CDG knows as well as we do that their capital is all important, so why would they send the bulk of their units north to fight us? They would be wiser to let us sack outer cities until we come into range of their capital, where they could attack us while still remaining close enough to their capital, should something disastrous occur.
The plan is a decent one, but we need to be aware of these assumptions and do whatever we can to ensure success.
We must plan alternative courses of action for different possibilities:
-If they send a galley throught the chokepoint and discover our galleys
-If we are delayed at the chokepoint
-If they turn tail and run at the first sight of Army Group A
Remember the old adage: No plan survives first contact with the enemy. The way to minimize the ensuing chaos is to think of and plan for all the exceptions that could occur.
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Dominae
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How about this for a revised version of this plan?
1. Send all of our offensive West, across the northern parts of the CDG lands (straight across from Mingapulco), but make it look like our attack force is rather weak (this can be done in many ways).
2. Make a lot of noise, threaten CDG and make demands (this should be the most satisfying part!).
3a. Brace the main attack group for attack from CDG, hoping they'll take the bait and run their troops into ours.
3b. (Both parts of point 3 occur simultaneously) Send a detachement off to grab the city at the chokepoint.
4. Depending on how the war goes with our main force, move in a bunch of Galleys to the chokepoint city and prepare a flank maneuver, or call the whole thing off and/or re-assess.
This alternative plan has three advantages: 1) it masks the fact that we're going for the chokepoint as an integral part of our plan, making it seem like "we're close to it, might as well take it", and so our Galleys may actualy be unexpected when they arrive close to their capitol, 2) it allows us to fight defensively, which as Carthage we do best, with the card up our sleeve being our naval flank maneuver, and 3) it does not commit us too much, as we can "pull out" at any point with minor inconveniences.
Thoughts?
Dominae
P.S: By the way, good initiave on this Trip. This is exactly what we need from our MoW!
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Dominae
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joncnunn, those are valid suggestions, and pretty easy to implement. However, if CDG starts deciding to waste their money on espionage at this point in the game, we can count ourselves lucky. I doubt they will do so.
Dominae
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
I like the plan, too. Not sure if it is feasible production-wise (all the galleys), but from the high-level PoV, it looks brilliant.
Plus, having a strong fleet would help us anyways, as even striking along the eastern CDG coast would draw some of their forces from the main front. |
With enough turns it can be done.
That's the thing about navies. I either want a big one to do lots of fun stuff, or not to worry about it. If you do anything in between it's not a sound investment. If we're going to be building Galleys, then I want to make them pay off for us. We should be able to get 5 Galleys, especially given that Incensity is pre-building a Galley right now, and will soon be up to 3/4 SPT. It will take some time, but it can be done.
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Panzer32
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Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:28
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My thoughts on this scenario:
1. Basically the idea is solid. It would do wonders for team morale, and would cripple CDG in one sharp blow. It also gives us the checkpoint city, which might or might not be important in the future.
2. It will take a longer time to prepare than a simple ground assault, since we will need 150 more shields for the 5 galleys. In the meantime, we still have to be ready for an assault from CDG or to react to a CDG invasion elsewhere. Therefore, I suggest that (most of) the galleys be the last thing built in this project so that we still have enough military units at home ready to be mobilized upon a moment's notice. Note that I am not suggesting we don't build any galleys currently, I do think we should build a galley for exploration purposes ASAP.
3. The time between the turn that CDG sees the troops approaching the chokepoint city and the landing next to their capital is crucial. They will know we are attacking them, and they will wonder why we went for their chokepoint city. If it is important enough, they may even send immortals out to recapture the chokepoint. This may be bad for us, because if an immortal is moving along the coastline and sees all of our ships, it could compromize the entire operation.
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BRC
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We will be in Republic, so rushing some of the galleys will be a viable option. I also think that we should hit their chokepoint city from land, without them seeing our galleys. Way too dangerous to use the galley landings for that.
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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:28
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I still like Trip's plan as it stands.
We can hide the Galley's from CDG easily. Why would they suspect that we would want to use the choke point city for launching an attack against their Capital with a Navy? I would think that they would think we want that city for the very reasons that they settled it; to have control over CFC's movements and the movements of other Nations through that point.
We could do our own investigations. Before we land our toops, just out of site near the choke point and while we have our first stack moving towards their other border cities, we can investigate their Capitol to see what kind of units they have left behind.
Still, I think it is better to attack their Capitol with Horsemen, against their max of 2 defense strength units. That's 2 versus 2, I like that in this case. If we approach that city on land they will get the first attack against us, putting their 4(offensive) against our 3(defensive) and possibly 2 if they take out or damage enough of our land units.
We can attack their Capitol on the same turn we land, taking away their chance at firt attack, litterally stealing from them their units offensive abilities. Even if they survive the first attack, they are still not in a very good position for a counter attack on the remaining units. We should plan for the second stack of land units to be adjacent to the tile that are Horsemen attack from on the very next turn. I expect the Horsemen's retreat ability to save a few of them. Our second stack can then take care of any Immortals that saw fit to chase after the wounded Horsemen. CDG's Capitol will be significantly weak at this time, allowing for our Second stack to move in and capture the city on the turn after that. The reamaining horsemen will still be one tile away and could help the second stack as well.
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wervdon
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Thoughs:
1) Good plan lots of potential.
2) By the time we do this, I expect more cities between the chokepoint and the main part of their empire. If we move to capture these in a way that looks "natural" (ala annexing), then the capture of the chokepoint is likely to blend in. Especially if its not the first city we capture in the campaign. I do agree with those who say we should try to capture it by land not sea though. Once they've seen a large flotilla landing armies....the jig is up so to speak.
3) A couple of pillages might also help in persuading them to try to go offensive instead of holing up in their cities waiting for us to come to them. It's much harder to wait when you know that by the time they come to you, you'll be set back 50 turns.
I would say definately plan to rush build some of the units/galleys.
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:28
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I guess a fair amount depends on how strong their force is when we go to attack. If it is not enormously strong, and we feel we can hold them with the land-based forces (with some redundancy, of course), then there should be no issue, as we can quickly reach their Iron and either take it (best case scenario), denying them any reinforcements beyond Archers/Spears/Catapults or bog them down there, as they will need to defend that Iron with everything they have.
If the above is the case, then we can regard the Galley forces as a bonus - the land forces will result in at least a draw by themselves, but the extra factor of the Galley troops would push us ahead unless we had atrocious luck.
I think we can certainly aim for this now. Since it is going to be quite some time (a month at very least) before any actual positioning strategy we may come up with will be implemented, we can afford to. If any simulations anyone is running can make the numbers mentioned above, then this strat (should it work) would be possible. If not, then we will still have an awesome force for even a frontal assault, and a huge area of the map covered with the Galleys.
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06-06-2003 10:59
, only one Q , should we not have lets say 6 more swords as backup and reserves , just in case , ...... 
At the very least they will not allow their Iron to be cut off and thus they will have units there. We can hope to take out these units, or at least damage them, necessitating reinforcements from the Capital.
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