06-06-2003 19:27									#31
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JohnT: the same goes for most of the world. It's just that in the western world, everything is much clearer. How about all those "pre-marriage-sex" girls in muslim countries, or the despair in africa?

	06-06-2003 19:37									#32
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Western civilization stresses individualism, which usually is a good thing, but it does carry with it the danger of creating isolation. Teens, who are going through the psychological step of pulling away from the parents and families, are at even greater risk. IMHO, feeling of isolation greatly increase the risk of suicide.

In the Phils & other developing countries, there is more emphasis on community and on family and less on individualism.

	07-06-2003 00:47									#33
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Interesting graph.

Canada seems like one of the best places in the world for women, since the sex ratio for suicides is so skewed.

MikeH:

Depression is exactly that. The brain distorts your world, so that stuff you normally shrug off preoccupies your entire life.

	07-06-2003 00:56									#34
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"In the Phils & other developing countries, there is more emphasis on community and on family and less on individualism."

THAT sounds like it. Though I don't know if I would call it an emphasis over there as much as the natural order of things the the west has lost. It gives kids a foundation western kids don't have. As a culture we're out of balance.

Zkribbler

JohnT, interesting chart, I noticed the Philippines isn't listed, wonder why? They would also fall under the Catholic catagory. The Catholics also teach that suicide is a sin. That life isn't over at death and its worse there if you kill yourself. So, suicide loses its resolution. I think the Catholic thing is the real deal.

	07-06-2003 00:57									#35
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I've been quoted in a sig!!! Thanks Obiwan, I thought with all the stupid things I say around here that it would of happened sooner

---

Kids these days need to stay on their Ritalin!

---

I think the increase (or seeming so) of youth suicides is due to the decrease in familly values brought on by the parents materistic ideals. Ideals that encourage/reward success over attempts, success over love, success over acceptance, success over remorse, and money over success... Possibly started by the children of baby boomers who have never learned to raise their own kids...

	07-06-2003 02:12									#36
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"decrease in familly values"

I agree.

	07-06-2003 02:28									#37
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"JohnT, interesting chart, I noticed the Philippines isn't listed, wonder why?"

I looked at a number of sources and found no mention of the Philippines in them either. Imo, this suggests an even more unreliable data source than the one from India and the other countries. Given that they are the 12th largest country* in the world by population, their omission is surprising.

According to one site**, the Philippines suicide rate is an astonishingly low 2.1 per 100,000.

* http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/idbrank.pl

** http://web.hhs.se/personal/suzuki/a...hilippines.html

Last edited by JohnT on 07-06-2003 at 02:34

	07-06-2003 03:59									#38
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See?...

	07-06-2003 04:41									#39
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It is the lack of meaning... food is not meaning, nor is clothes or cars...

	07-06-2003 04:45									#40
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Philipinnes are mostly catholic, so that is where the meaning and lack of suicides are ... peopel still believe in it, even though it might not make sense to us, but it gives purpose to life...

eastern european countries, are the ones with not soo much food, but with religion very weak (or better to say not really believable anymore) after communism, and sucide rates are the highest in the world... I think Hungary in #1 per 1000 of population now or last year...

that is just my 2c

	07-06-2003 04:48									#41
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"It is the lack of meaning... food is not meaning, nor is clothes or cars..."

Sure, those things can be distraction from meaning if they are status.

	07-06-2003 04:52									#42
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I would say they - food, material things etc, can provide focus if you have no reason to live really - you can just focus on this and try to live the best you can, but ultimatley more sccucumb to realisation that all this doesn't make sense, with such understanding of life (focus in material), why bother when it will all end with no purpose anyway, and the current living circumstances are crap anyway with no hope of getting better.

	07-06-2003 05:07									#43
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This goes off-topic, but catholics sure are able to suicide, although the sin-part makes it more difficult. For example, a depressed catholic might jump from the top of a tall building and have just enought time on the way down to repent. Same might go for hanging or poisoning, if the poison reacts slowly enough.
Just an idea.

	07-06-2003 05:26									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer In my little town a 19 year old kid killed himself a couple days back. Took a gun and put a bullet through his brain. Here we live in near paradise on the Oregon Coast, small town...yet this kid ends it all. Doesn't happen much here so its big news. I hear other places have much higher suicide rates. In the Philippines there are very few, unheard of, yet so many there are dirt poor, lacking food and clean water... So, is it drugs or the music or...what? Why does this happen in the wealthy west?

20,000 people commit suicide each year in the US, out of a population of 280,000,000.

30,000 people commit suicide each year in Japan, out of a population of 150,000,000.

250,000 people commit suicide each year in China, out of a population of 1,300,000,000.

So the suicide rate in China and Japan is at least twice as high as in the US, what's wrong with the Western Culture?

	07-06-2003 06:12									#45
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quote: In my little town a 19 year old kid killed himself a couple days back. Took a gun and put a bullet through his brain. Here we live in near paradise on the Oregon Coast, small town...yet this kid ends it all.

You think that's bad? Ever heard of Petri Gerdt, another 19-year old?

	07-06-2003 06:53									#46
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Nope...

	07-06-2003 07:38									#47
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16-21 year old male, without gf, nerdy-looking, doesn't get to college, middle-class -parents, living alone, suffering from a really serious depression... Like about 1 000 similar persons per year, he wants to kill himself. However, Petri also knows this, he knows that a lot of guys like he'll end up dead. He knows that nobody, except the statisticians, care a **** from them, so they'll be forgotten as a losers who can't handle their lives properly.

Petri doesn't want to be a forgotten loser. Petri want's attention, which he hasn't ever got. Petri wants public to care from his miserable destiny. So, instead of killing himself, Petri, who is a failed chemistry student, takes a large shopping bag, fills it with home-made explosives, spikes and nails, then goes to center of the mall - and blows himself.

Results: 7 people died, 11 permamently injured, 50 got off with major and minor wounds. Damage of € 1 300 000 inflicted upon the mall. Speeches held by the president, PM, minister of interior affairs, tabloids have screaming headlines for about a week. After that?

Nothing. Most of the people don't even remember the name anymore.

Petri Gerdt is a forgotten loser. And nobody cares from his miserable, tragicomic destiny.



Here's a link, you can browse other links which are on the bottom of the story...
http://www.helsinki-hs.net/news.asp?id=20021016IE7

Last edited by VJ on 07-06-2003 at 07:48

	07-06-2003 07:53									#48
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He was angry at the world and killed and hurt some random people to get even, though they never even knew him. Mean little **** wasn't he?

Anyway, the village is still there, the community is gone. People are running around chasing empty dreams and nothing really makes sense. That's not the fault of the people he blew up. Listen, getting all angry about it, getting a demeanor like the one in your avatar Tuom, that's just taking part in the emptyness of it all, making things worse. Who can find hope in such a face? Finding an alternative to getting mean, to losing hope, that means looking to the past when those things existed that had true value. Value to the soul... For me, that value can be found in the third world. It was a very long search for me, and I couldn't find it... in this culture.

	07-06-2003 07:58									#49
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I see little evidence that "western culture" in particular is undergoing some sort of horrible turmoil. What is happening is a continual disassociation among individuals, which has been an ongoing consequence of Industrialization throughout the world. Misanthropy is a result of alienation, which is itself a result of the removal of people from traditional and instinctual social spheres.

This is happening everywhere, not just the west.

	07-06-2003 08:00									#50
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Sounds like Alvin Toffler.

	07-06-2003 08:01									#51
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quote: Misanthropy is a result of alienation, which is itself a result of the removal of people from traditional and instinctual social spheres.

Sums it all up pretty well.

	07-06-2003 08:02									#52
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Lancer, the bottom line is (I know you will love this) that Hillary was indeed correct--it takes a village. The loss of the village is what is creating the increased numbers of rampant sociopaths.

	07-06-2003 08:04									#53
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quote: According to one site**, the Philippines suicide rate is an astonishingly low 2.1 per 100,000.

With a few more data points, you could cultivate an objective measure testifying positive effects of Catholic theology.


Very cool.

As for my church, we teach that anyone considering suicide needs help and treatment for depression, not condemnation.

quote: a continual disassociation among individuals, which has been an ongoing consequence of Industrialization throughout the world.

I agree with Boris. This seems to me an excellent thesis for the problem. One of the most important aspects of religion to alleviate modern dissociation is the community fellowship.

	07-06-2003 08:06									#54
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I agree with that in principal, with the exception that the village is still there, the community is not. Nor are the people of the village to be trusted to raise a kid. Remember, Hillary's kid went to the pricey private school, nowhere near the village. Fear...

	07-06-2003 08:07									#55
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Uh, you're completely misconstruing what she meant by "village." She was saying "village" as in "community."

	07-06-2003 08:20									#56
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I'm saying the 2 should not be confused.

	07-06-2003 08:47									#57
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catholics might have lower suicide rates but then again you have to be catholic and thats no picnic in the park

	07-06-2003 09:46									#58
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Nothing wrong with being Catholic.

	07-06-2003 11:23									#59
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Here's my theory about the U.S.

We got it too easy. Humans need challenge. Often I feel better when I challenge myself and face my fears. Often doing something dangerous makes me feel better.

I have felt suicidal in the past, and still feel suicidal from time to time.

I think the high standard of living has hurt the U.S. Even poor people have no trouble finding enough food to eat- look how fat they are. So you can't say poor people still face challenges. They face no challenge in life.

	07-06-2003 11:29									#60
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Western culture rules.