07-06-2003 11:45									#61
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I agree.

	07-06-2003 11:59									#62
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I like Dissident culture

	07-06-2003 12:38									#63
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

there's a scheme for 16-21 y/o suiciders?

	07-06-2003 14:31									#64
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Bullshit about catholics being less suicidal. Slovenia is traditionally among the top three countries in Europe regarding suicides, and now I see Croatia is pretty high too Both are about 80-90% Catholic.

	07-06-2003 16:26									#65
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Bullshit about catholics being less suicidal. Slovenia is traditionally among the top three countries in Europe regarding suicides, and now I see Croatia is pretty high too Both are about 80-90% Catholic.

but really - the people in our countries are just catholics on paper - just a little % of the population really believes which gives them sense or meaning to live, and these are people 60 years old +, most of them are reasonable enough to see that organised religion as such is nothing more than an old institution, that takes the meaning of the religion out of it. They are just going there to be seen (those who go actually), as they used to go to former Communist party meetings ... and Pope is like new Tito

That reality coupled with worse standard of living (comparing to the west, which gives more westerners some focus to go and live for some kind of pleasure, ie - life is not so bad so get on with it) gives them no reaon to live really, as it is tough and it won't be any easier, and for what reason should they go trough all that suffering (coupled with some personal disater, ie, family, girlfriend, etc...)? So they go and kill themselves... no reason to live...

	07-06-2003 16:48									#66
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Come on - let's be fair here. It is not so way out to kill yourself. Everyone gets depressed sometimes and it just take one particularly bad episode, and an easy (and instantly irreversable) means of doing the deed, and whamo - another statistic.

It is not as if our world encourages any sort of individualism. Everyone is just another cog in the machine. No-one is special, so what is there to live for? The typical life can be summarised as: born, have a crappy childhood, hit adolesence and become confused, get married and have 1.4 kids, get middle aged and fat, grow old and die. No-one would be missed - even 'loved ones' will forget you in a few years, so why prolong the misery?

I think it is mainly the lack of love in western society. It poor countries people are often dependent on their family for survival and this can lead to very stong relationships, and a feeling of being needed. Killing oneself then has dire consequences not only to yourself but to those around you whom you love. In the west, people are not so needed (who here could say that they are really needed?) and won't be so missed.

Even the idea of 'making a difference' has gone down the pan. Our society is now so complex and corrupt that if you dedicate your entire life to improving the world you will only produce an unnoticable drop in the ocean and a punch in the face for your trouble. Virtuous behaviour is regarded as a waste of time - everyone is out for themselves and if they are not now, they will be soon.

I think the realisation of this for a teenager (who has always been told the opposite when a child) can be pretty devistating, and it is little wonder that some of them decide to kill themselves rather than become corrupt collaborators to a society they despise and cannot fight against.

	07-06-2003 18:03									#67
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I know the real reason It can be explained by Russian word "Zazhralis'", that means something about ate more than neaded and had everithing. If you are thinking about suicide visit Ukraine to revise your thoughts.

This tendency is not related to culture. People think that they have nothing to achieve.

	07-06-2003 19:49									#68
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quote: Originally posted by muxec I know the real reason It can be explained by Russian word "Zazhralis'", that means something about ate more than neaded and had everithing. If you are thinking about suicide visit Ukraine to revise your thoughts. There is a expectation instilled at a very early age in the West of greatness.It is pursued without regard for morality so long as it is achieved,the result is that the more agressive personalities reduce the less agressive to a "permanent" mechanical and unfofilling exitence.This perception of permanent failure in a world of glory is this "Zazhralis" or is sucide symptomatic of excess in the presence of poverty. I think that your conclusion is mostly true however This tendency is not related to culture. People think that they have nothing to achieve.

	08-06-2003 20:37									#69
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Suicide? Now THAT would be an option.

- German comedy.

	08-06-2003 20:43									#70
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I didn't think you had them.

	08-06-2003 20:45									#71
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had what?

	08-06-2003 20:48									#73
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goint out into the sun now, you should do the same!

	08-06-2003 20:51									#74
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

It's cloudy and windy. Had torrential rain earlier, so...

	08-06-2003 20:51									#75
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and they said germans werent funny

	08-06-2003 21:33									#76
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm not German. I'm not even human.

	09-06-2003 00:33									#77
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quote: As for my church, we teach that anyone considering suicide needs help and treatment for depression, not condemnation.

We in the Catholic Church would reccomend help too, after all if they are just considering it they haven't comitted a sin yet.

I suppose Catholicism could have something to do with the suicide rate. For one thing Catholicism tend to emphasize the community more and be less individualistic then Protestantism. Traditionally, the reasoning went that since suicide is a mortal sin and afterwards, you would go to hell. Hence traditionally people who comitted sucide were not buried on Church ground even.

Currently, with our greater understanding of psychology, we can see that someone who comitts suicide often is under severe psychological pressure which can limit one's responsibility for their actions. The Cathecism states: "Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.". Thus, a person who has comitted suicide might not have the full knowledge and deliberate consent to the action that mortal sin requires, hence we now all suicides to be given a Catholic burial and we hope for the best. However, in Catholic communities some of the stigma from older times might remain thus discouraging sucide.

I am suprised however some of you say it is Catholicism that considers suicide a sin. Given the Fifth Commandment any Protestant Church which goes by the bible should also.

	09-06-2003 05:42									#78
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The best explanation about suicide rates I heard had to do with how people interacted with their "neighbours", the relative individualism: With either too high or too low interactions, you get higher suicide rates.
Low individualism: (Japan, China...). These countries provide a lot of stress on people by telling them forcefully how they should live. If you don't want to live that way, then you want to die: You can't fit in the system, there is no room for you. Suicide.
High individualism: (Western world, particularly former Soviet countries). You are not told how to live, or, rather, noone will help you or tell you what to do. If you can't find out, you may feel abandoned by society. This is particularly true in ex-communist countries, where society used to do a lot for the people (providing them jobs, job safety, and generally preventing them from thinking about what they should do with their life...). If you feel that noone in the society cares about you, you feel out of touch with everyone, see all other people who manage their own lives but you can't, so you'd rather die.

Anyone can be subject to suicide because of either of these extremes: being overborn by other people and their rules, or feeling abandoned. I don't say there aren't other reasons. Suicide is not something you can really think of in statistics if you've known people who either commited or tried to suicide, but I think the two patterns apply. Note that catholicism, being a religion that forces a lot of things upon people, can help those who feel abandoned, but on the contrary can cause people who rebel against bounds to suicide themselves, because they will feel stifled by that religion on top of other things.

	09-06-2003 05:51									#79
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People often feel trapped in this closed, systemised, pragmatic world. They see it is an abstract prison, and thus depression sets in, and to them, suicide seems a way out, a reasonable conclusion to a distorted chain of reasoning.

A lot of "psuedo-Lennons" feel somewhat powerless in this world, and though a few find a voice, many who desire to speak find themselves muted and impotent.

	09-06-2003 06:10									#80
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We need to legalize prostitution. Once these folks get laid, everything will be alright.

	09-06-2003 08:14									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Zero We need to legalize prostitution. Once these folks get laid, everything will be alright.

Prostitutes have the highest suicide rate of all professions.

	09-06-2003 08:34									#83
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Are those legal or illegal prostitutes?

	09-06-2003 19:59									#84
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quote: I think it is mainly the lack of love in western society. It poor countries people are often dependent on their family for survival and this can lead to very stong relationships, and a feeling of being needed.

I think there is something to this. Social ties are stronger here in China. My relationships with my best Chinese friends are much more intense than with my western friends.

	09-06-2003 20:44									#85
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btw, some people of that sort refuse prostitutes. they're sad enough they can't get it done the normal way.