08-06-2003 04:54									#121
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quote: I know Bush is a neo-con, but he's not so neocon as the others, on a scale of one to ten Wolfy is a 10, Cheney is a 9, Rummy is an 8, Bush is a 5, and Powell is a 1.

You've got a wierd scale .

My scale: Wolfowitz 10, Rumsfeld 7, Bush 7, Cheney 5, Powell 2.

	08-06-2003 05:51									#122
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It has been argued in this thread that since the effect of getting rid of Saddam is desirable,it does nt matter if the stated motives( i.e. Womd, oil ) for doing so are true or false.1) Failure to prove our justification serves to support Arab-nationals claims that we are evil,and will result in increased resistence in occupied territories.
2)In a age of real nuclear rivalries it is unwise to engage in gun boat doctrine at the expense of alliances( there were other consequences besides the creation of a disempowered Iraq and there will be further crisis)

	08-06-2003 05:51									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Considering how many times you have been caught in outright lies on this message board, I find it very ironic that you say this. In fact, I think the above is probably a lie as well.

I am very political so I have to perfect my skills of lying.. but if you make friends with me you will know I am dead honest about everything. I never stray from the cold hard facts when it the company of friends.

The above is primarily the truth as I would say it to a friend, but you all are not friends.. actually political adversaries. But that statement I made is the truth because the complusive lying is mainly on the left wing of politics.

	08-06-2003 05:53									#124
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http://www.emergency.com/2003/urban...siderations.htm

	08-06-2003 06:12									#125
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Vandal, and? So what? Why point out that source?

It seems like the US has fullfilled all the article of war in the Art of War by Sun Tzu... adequately. I am a big fan of the Sun Tzu.. I have been reading his book, Art of War, dozens of times.

This will be an moderate task for coalition forces but the US forces have air support and other factors backing them including superior equipment. What it doesn't explain is that the batteries on SAM launchers belonging to Iraqi miltiamen are worn out and old.

	08-06-2003 06:44									#126
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I merely wish to point out a direct negative consequence to our psych-ops among other real liabilties.

	08-06-2003 06:55									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov ...Having an elected (well, sort-of!) government ..

That's all you need to know about boris' angle... and motives...

	08-06-2003 07:02									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Boris: He exaggerated the truth . I mean, obviously Saddam had SOMETHING. I mean, there was no reason for him to deny UN inspector teams access to his palaces if he was all clean. Doesn't really matter though because Ollie North did worse and he's a hero to millions .

Ollie North did worse than Saddam?
Are you ****in' shittin' me???????!??!?!??

Holy stupid comment Batman!

	08-06-2003 07:04									#129
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or did you mean worse than bush?

sorry if i mis understood

	08-06-2003 07:15									#130
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You are too funny.... OF COURSE I meant BUSH!

	08-06-2003 17:02									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I am very political so I have to perfect my skills of lying.. but if you make friends with me you will know I am dead honest about everything.

Jeesh Fez, you sound like the 'fun' guy . Remember that in college you can be considered partypooper if you in the midst of party flash lights and go 'Listen up! Most of you are under 21 years old and as the state regulates go, you can not and I repeat.. YOU CAN NOT DRINK ALCOHOL! But because I'm such a cool and liberal guy, I won't let the cops know if you stop this party now. Lectures begin at 8am tomorrow, and if I don't get my sleep, I will notify you all to the dean, who by the way is my fathers good friend. I for one would like to succeed in this life and if you feel like throwing away your parents good money, please do so outside college perimeter. I must warn you, that in that case I will be following you with my digital video camera and will be taking names.'

	08-06-2003 20:57									#132
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North was making use of the Black market to trade weapons originally bought with drug(other Black market)money,in order to "get around "congressional finance and accountability to the American people.
The Colonel was making use of guerilla elements already inplace in both theatres and infiltrating trade(developing trade...however you wish to look at it)
This indirect low intensity warfare was effective in both influence and cost.People are more understanding of success real or percieved I quess.

	08-06-2003 21:10									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Jeesh Fez, you sound like the 'fun' guy . Remember that in college you can be considered partypooper if you in the midst of party flash lights and go 'Listen up! Most of you are under 21 years old and as the state regulates go, you can not and I repeat.. YOU CAN NOT DRINK ALCOHOL! But because I'm such a cool and liberal guy, I won't let the cops know if you stop this party now. Lectures begin at 8am tomorrow, and if I don't get my sleep, I will notify you all to the dean, who by the way is my fathers good friend. I for one would like to succeed in this life and if you feel like throwing away your parents good money, please do so outside college perimeter. I must warn you, that in that case I will be following you with my digital video camera and will be taking names.'

Now I would never spoil somebody's party time like that. And besides only weighing 130 pounds is not an advantage for me...

Also for the fact that I live in off campus housing... these are small single room apartments that do not have much room to party.

	08-06-2003 22:39									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Vandal-1 North was making use of the Black market to trade weapons originally bought with drug(other Black market)money,in order to "get around "congressional finance and accountability to the American people. The Colonel was making use of guerilla elements already inplace in both theatres and infiltrating trade(developing trade...however you wish to look at it) This indirect low intensity warfare was effective in both influence and cost.People are more understanding of success real or percieved I quess.

The problems, although I admire Ollie to some degree, were that he set a precedent of negotiating with terrorists, and that when the whole thing blew up in our face, it was obvious to our good buddy Saddam (who was being "cultivated" as a useful ally at the time) that the US was happily playing both sides in the Iran-Iraq war.

It also happily ignored some legitimate accounting issue with the Contras which led to the Boland Amendment, like why were Contra leaders like Adolfo Calero (one of those who Reagan called "the moral equivalent of our founding fathers" ) living it up in close to million dollar Miami Beach condos, and living like party animals, not "freedom fighters" IOW, how much US taxpayer money was funding Calero, et al's lifestyles here in the US, as opposed to funding fighters in Nicaragua?

In the end, it's highly questionable whether North's "accomplishments" were really worth the hassle.

What North did was a perfect demonstration that policy issues are rarely simple, linear "just do it" affairs.

	08-06-2003 23:07									#135
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I think it is part of counterinsurgency doctrine (police work) now and I guess we'll see if General Clark can make enough friends to utilize it ,when his boss can't keep a straight game going. Oh-Well he'll have a fiew years to work at it anyway. I hope we can atleast tell the Kurds we did it for their sake (and IMO there is a level of truth in that)

	08-06-2003 23:09									#136
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I used to think North is just a criminal, although one that got away on the cheap. What's to admire about him?

	09-06-2003 00:35									#137
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Given that North helped destroy the only working socialist democracy, I can't say there's a special enough place reserved in hell for him. Nicaragua is now a basket case thanks to North and his buddies who decided that they knew better than Congress.

	09-06-2003 00:50									#138
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Nicaragua was a basket case before the Ortegas, it was a basket case courtesy of the Ortegas, and it'll be a basket case no matter what.

As far as "working socialist democracy" that's the best joke I've heard here in a long time. "Working" if you count on subsidies from the USSR, "socialist" if you call the usual Latinamerican communist revolutionary movements "socialist" (as opposed to Marxist-Leninist with a twist of banana), and "democracy" if you count being able to vote for the local party members approved by the Ortega brothers.

Roland - I have a soft spot for Capone and Gotti too, what can I say?

	09-06-2003 00:59									#139
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Roland - I have a soft spot for Capone and Gotti too, what can I say?

I can understand that for Capone, maybe for Gotti, but North?

	09-06-2003 02:45									#140
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Actually the Somoza regime in Nicaragua was doing an okay job keeping the counry afloat.. there was actually modest economic growth despite the corruption. When Ortega walked into Managua, everything got really ****ed up royally. There was staghyperflation.. you name it.. 3,000% inflation with 30% unemployment.. This had to do with literally retarded nationalization programmes which involved crushing the private sector.

Not one socialist movement in Latin America has done one good for any country. When they come to power things get screwed up, the economy screws up and they nationalize everything.. throwing the country into the gutter where it cannot get out of. I don't care what you commies say but your beliefs have caused some serious disfunction in many economies throughout Latin America and will always do so.

	09-06-2003 04:43									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Vandal-1 It has been argued in this thread that since the effect of getting rid of Saddam is desirable,it does nt matter if the stated motives( i.e. Womd, oil ) for doing so are true or false.

Otherwise Bush might have to take the heat for dead troops or dead civilians. So they change their story.

quote: 1) Failure to prove our justification serves to support Arab-nationals claims that we are evil,and will result in increased resistence in occupied territories. 2)In a age of real nuclear rivalries it is unwise to engage in gun boat doctrine at the expense of alliances( there were other consequences besides the creation of a disempowered Iraq and there will be further crisis)

Nuclear rivalries? Just goes to show N. Korea learned its lesson. Get your nukes built before the US starts deploying. It also helps to have tons of artillery pointed at a major city of a US ally. Oh, and make friends with China, that helps too.

Yep, we really taught the world a lesson alright!

	09-06-2003 05:10									#142
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Politicians lie, cheat, embezzle and exaggerate, as well as spin, dumb down, and expect (with reasonable evidence) people to act, behave and think like complete idiots, and to follow them off a cliff, thinking that they will thus fly!

Its what we expect from them. As much as I disapprove of US foreign policy and the war, as well as the prospect of more wars, as well as the PNAC and CIA, I think that we have all exhausted this particular thread topic.

Theres plenty of other stuff, larger stuff, we can talk about that the USA is doing erroneously, lets all leave this topic be. We went to war on a speculation, would be a reasonable dialectic, and if not, lets agree to disagree.

	09-06-2003 05:17									#143
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Very well elijah.. yes I agree with you that politicans lie.. some embezzle and most exaggerate.

But I will agree to disagree with you about Iraq. That in my mind was no speculation.

	09-06-2003 05:24									#144
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Well, we shall see if they do find weapons or not, until now, lets all hold judgement. I was talking more about the weight of "evidence" and the results thus far, would seem to suggest that they were speculating on the possibility, and at the time, probability of WMD in Iraq, I think few would disagree, but that is separate to the issue of whether or not there are any.

I still dont think that any of their arguments, including WMD would have justified the war, but that is again something that we shall have to see on, I'll post up a link to some of my articles on the subject when I get the time, but for now, lets hold fire on this issue, as time will surely tell whether or not there are weapons, and whether Bush +co was lying or not.

	09-06-2003 06:59									#145
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I don't think arguing a strong case is the same as lying. And you and Roland know it. The Bush team felt strongly that Saddam had WOMD based on his history and the imperfect intelligence. A lie would be if he didn't think there were WOMD and said there were.

	09-06-2003 07:14									#146
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Of course, they lied. The irony is that it wasn't even necessary: this war could have been justified and sold to the public without all these lies to the American people, without Powell lying to the international community in his UN speech, etc.

	09-06-2003 07:18									#147
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No they didn't lie. Powell was honest in that speech. If you believe the Iraqis on this issue, you have problems. It is like hearing that dumb***, Iraqi Ambassador to the UN, Al Douri (or whatever his name was) and believing him. I mean he claimed his country had no weapons of mass destruction.. as we all know this is a flat out lie. Don't even damn try to justify that he was telling the truth.

	09-06-2003 07:19									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Boris: He exaggerated the truth .

Exaggeration of the truth is a variant of lie. In other words, it's a lie.

	09-06-2003 07:31									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Fez No they didn't lie. Powell was honest in that speech.

The only way for him to have been honest in that speech is that he was hugely misled himself (perhaps he was even under hypnosis ).

quote: If you believe the Iraqis on this issue, you have problems.

I don't exactly believe the Iraqis. We are not talking about them now. We are discussing the American officials.

	09-06-2003 07:36									#150
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Vagabond.. that is entirely your opinion. I don't care.. you want to be deluded about this issue? Fine. You want to call Powell a liar? Fine. You aren't even informed about it. How the hell do you know about the specifics? I don't even trust the media at all. I trust the government more than the media.. call it dumb or retarded... but at least it has more credibility then the media will ever have on this subject.