09-06-2003 07:37									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Hmm, well at least Bush didn't lie under oath about porking an intern in the White House. I'd say this is a step in the right direction.

Good point. Even if they lied, it was not under oath.

	09-06-2003 07:42									#152
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Fez, would you agree that exaggeration of the truth generally constitutes a lie?

	09-06-2003 07:45									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I mean, obviously Saddam had SOMETHING. I mean, there was no reason for him to deny UN inspector teams access to his palaces if he was all clean.

Ah, I was just reading a similar thread over at SDMB. Check it out, got a bunch of thoughtful answers.

	09-06-2003 07:45									#154
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Personally I believe that the way they chose to justify and sell war in Iraq is one single biggest mistake of Bush's otherwise successful presidency.

	09-06-2003 07:49									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Fez It seems like the US has fullfilled all the article of war in the Art of War by Sun Tzu... adequately. I am a big fan of the Sun Tzu.. I have been reading his book, Art of War, dozens of times.

Then you should have known that Sun Tzu would most definitely disagree with GWII if he were alive.

How did he rank the 5 options a country has in handling foreign affairs?

	09-06-2003 07:53									#156
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quote: Originally posted by GP I don't think arguing a strong case is the same as lying.

Strong case? Okay, where are them Iraqi NBC weapons?

	09-06-2003 07:54									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Strong case? Okay, where are them Iraqi NBC weapons?

They're in Iraq.

	09-06-2003 08:16									#158
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quote: Originally posted by GP I don't think arguing a strong case is the same as lying. And you and Roland know it. The Bush team felt strongly that Saddam had WOMD based on his history and the imperfect intelligence. A lie would be if he didn't think there were WOMD and said there were.

The lie was that we KNEW they had WoMD. Even if they are found, it will still have been a lie, because Bush averred, unequivocably, that we had intelligence that proved beyond a doubt he had them. What this intelligence official is saying is that no, we knew no such thing, but we had some circumstantial evidence the administration trumped up into something we KNEW.

Bush saying we KNEW = the lie.

	09-06-2003 08:17									#159
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Fez, would you agree that exaggeration of the truth generally constitutes a lie?

Absolutely not. If it takes exaggeration to remove a twisted **** like Saddam Hussein and his super twisted sons, I see no problem with it. But there was no exaggeration in this.... it was the truth.

UR, that is your own personal opinion. I suggest you reread the Art of War while you are at it too. I think Sun Tzu if alive today would agree with how Bush has handled things.

	09-06-2003 09:00									#160
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Almost better than the joke about the Nicaraguan "working socialist democracy"

	09-06-2003 12:03									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The lie was that we KNEW they had WoMD. Even if they are found, it will still have been a lie, because Bush averred, unequivocably, that we had intelligence that proved beyond a doubt he had them. What this intelligence official is saying is that no, we knew no such thing, but we had some circumstantial evidence the administration trumped up into something we KNEW. Bush saying we KNEW = the lie.

Amen, Boris.

The alternative is: It wasn't a lie because they really, really believed they knew. In that case they're living in their own fantasy world, which wouldn't be too surprising either.

So George, take your pick: liars or idiots.

	09-06-2003 15:03									#162
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler So George, take your pick: liars or idiots.

You mean Dubya isn't both of those things

	09-06-2003 15:10									#163
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IMO he's both, but in the given context, it's an "or".

	09-06-2003 15:37									#164
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler IMO he's both, but in the given context, it's an "or".

It's so hard to decide, he obviously lied but he is such an idiot!

	09-06-2003 18:32									#165
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JCC is not a DL

That is all

	09-06-2003 18:51									#166
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What a motley collection of idiots.
Talk about something you know, like whining.

	09-06-2003 20:22									#167
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand What a motley collection of idiots. Talk about something you know, like whining.

I agree! The best summation of the Bush Administration yet!

	10-06-2003 00:32									#168
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Assuming "Bush and Company" were, in fact, "wrong" (as opposed to your poor choice of terms), you're one of the few lucky one's who is always correct.

	10-06-2003 03:01									#169
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From the original article:

"What disturbs me deeply is what I think ...

"In Thielman's view..."

"Thielman said he had presumed..."

This appears to be one on the edge of the classified community, not in it. He presents conjecture that administration statements were conjecture. When he was supposedly privy to information he states that he "presumed" things. He states no knowledge of fact.

Are there WMD in Iraq? As I have been saying all along...give it 6 months to tell. We are only half way there.

	10-06-2003 03:08									#170
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When I cleaned my HD, I found this quote: "Def: American politics: The walruses herding the oysters. "
Why walruses evades me.

	10-06-2003 03:10									#171
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If there were Weapons of Mass Disappearance in Iraq, they are likely looted, like everything else, including the friggan nuclear waste containers.

	10-06-2003 03:10									#172
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Hey, before you all puddle your pillow too much over poor Saddam...
Some of you people need to get a grip.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2976616.stm

Iraq execution tapes on sale

Video tapes showing people being tortured and executed by Saddam Hussein's regime are being bought on the streets of Baghdad by Iraqis anxious to trace missing relatives.


Saddam Hussein's regime filmed executions

Most of the tapes are from the Shia Muslim insurgency that erupted after the first President George Bush urged Iraqis to overthrow the former Iraqi leader in the wake of the 1991 Gulf War.

Many of the executions took place in Najaf and Karbala in southern Iraq.

Some of the tapes show a man who appears to be Lieutenant General Ali Hassan al-Majid, a cousin of Saddam Hussein, better known as "Chemical Ali", killing people.

A BBC correspondent who has seen some of the recordings says they are evidence of the atrocities of the former regime.

Suffering under Saddam

One vendor said Iraqis buying the tapes want to see for themselves what happened.
"This is normal. People have suffered a lot of tragedies from Saddam Hussein. I don't know whether people believe these things or not. I don't know," the vendor told the BBC Arabic service.

Psychologist Abd al-Muhsin al-Khayat said people might also want to buy the tapes out of morbid curiosity.

"There are many possible explanations," he said. "They might have a missing or a person who was executed, so they try to identify him through the tapes.

"The other explanation is that some young people like sensational things, whether they are positive or negative."

Last month, human rights workers in Iraq said they found a number of mass graves containing the bodies of up to 100 civilians killed during the 1991 uprising.

	10-06-2003 03:18									#173
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Sloww :

And how is it relevant to Bush lying to the American people and doing fearmongering ?

	10-06-2003 03:27									#174
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It doesn't, but I guess Sloww des not feel like saying: "so they lied, who give a hoot?", like some slightly honest people do.

	10-06-2003 03:28									#175
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Hmmm....

former senior Iraqi officer says Iraq had secret WMD labs ready to go, but no WMDs...

	10-06-2003 03:30									#176
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I can't say that.


When all is uncovered, I want to see the look's on some faces.

	10-06-2003 03:33									#177
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Touched a raw nerve with Sloww there

Keep your homoerotic fantasies to yourself Old Boy.

Edan:

Hmm, so I guess tha admin. was lying, in saying huge stockpiles of weapons were there. Or we shouldn;t believe this guy either?

	10-06-2003 03:38									#178
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quote: Hmm, so I guess tha admin. was lying, in saying huge stockpiles of weapons were there. Or we shouldn;t believe this guy either?

Well, I think that the Administration probably exaggerated (or put spin on) what they knew (I don't remember "huge" stockpiles, though. I remember them mentioning the WMDs that hadn't been accounted for - which, was fair game since Iraq was supposed to account for them, and didn't), but I also think that there was intelligence that pointed at WMD programs in Iraq. Even Clinton, IIRC, said the evidence he had when he left office pointed at it. (of course, part of the realities of Intelligence is that one can never be sure that it's 100% reliable, thats the nature of the game).

I have no idea whether to believe this person or not - I think time will tell. However, it does explain why:
1. Iraq was reluctant to let in inspectors.
2. Why US intelligence believed Iraq was building WMDs.
3. Why WMDs aren't being found now.

But, as I said, this is just a possibility that seems to fit, but time will tell.

	10-06-2003 07:22									#179
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Talk between a son and his Daddy:

DADDY,_WHY_DID_WE_HAVE_TO_ATTACK_IRAQ?

Q:_Daddy,_why_did_we_have_to_attack_Iraq?

A:_Because_they_had_weapons_of_mass_destruction_ho
ney.

Q:_But_the_inspectors_didn't_find_any_weapons_of_m
ass_destruction.

A:_That's_because_the_Iraqis_were_hiding_them.

Q:_And_that's_why_we_invaded_Iraq?

A:_Yep._Invasions_always_work_better_than_inspections.

Q:_But_after_we_invaded_them,_we_STILL_didn't_find
_any_weapons_of
mass
destruction,_did_we?

A:_That's_because_the_weapons_are_so_well_hidden._Don't_worry,_we'll
find
something,_probably_right_before_the_2004_election
.

Q:_Why_did_Iraq_want_all_those_weapons_of_mass_des
truction?

A:_To_use_them_in_a_war,_silly.

Q:_I'm_confused. _If_they_had_all_those_weapons_that_they_planned_t
o
use_in
a_war,_then_why_didn't_they_use_any_of_those_weapo
ns_when_we_went_
to
war
with_them?

A:_Well,_obviously_they_didn't_want_anyone_to_know
_they_had_those
weapons,
so_they_chose_to_die_by_the_thousands_rather_than_
defend_themselve
s.

Q:_That_doesn't_make_sense_Daddy._Why_would_they_choose_to_die_if
they_had_all_those_big_weapons_to_fight_us_back_wi
th?

A:_It's_a_different_culture._It's_not_supposed_to_make_sense.

Q:_I_don't_know_about_you,_but_I_don't_think_they_
had_any_of_those

weapons
our_government_said_they_did.

A:_Well,_you_know,_it_doesn't_matter_whether_or_no
t_they_had_those

weapons._We_had_another_good_reason_to_invade_them_anyway.

Q:_And_what_was_that?

A:_Even_if_Iraq_didn't_have_weapons_of_mass_destru
ction,_Saddam
Hussein
was_a_cruel_dictator,_which_is_another_good_reason
_to_invade_anoth
er
country.

Q:_Why? _What_does_a_cruel_dictator_do_that_makes_it_OK_to
_invade_his
country?

A:_Well,_for_one_thing,_he_tortured_his_own_people
.

Q:_Kind_of_like_what_they_do_in_China?

A:_Don't_go_comparing_China_to_Iraq._China_is_a_good_economic
competitor,
where_millions_of_people_work_for_slave_wages_in_s
weatshops_to_mak
e
U.S.
corporations_richer.

Q:_So_if_a_country_lets_its_people_be_exploited_fo
r_American
corporate
gain,_it's_a_good_country,_even_if_that_country_to
rtures_people?

A:_Right.

Q:_Why_were_people_in_Iraq_being_tortured?

A:_For_political_crimes,_mostly,_like_criticizing_
the_government._
People
who_criticized_the_government_in_Iraq_were_sent_to
_prison_and
tortured.

Q:_Isn't_that_exactly_what_happens_in_China?

A:_I_told_you,_China_is_different.

Q:_What's_the_difference_between_China_and_Iraq?

A:_Well,_for_one_thing,_Iraq_was_ruled_by_the_Ba'a
th_party,_while
China_is
Communist.

Q:_Didn't_you_once_tell_me_Communists_were_bad?

A:_No,_just_Cuban_Communists_are_bad.

Q:_How_are_the_Cuban_Communists_bad?

A:_Well,_for_one_thing,_people_who_criticize_the_g
overnment_in_Cub
a
are
sent_to_prison_and_tortured.

Q:_Like_in_Iraq?

A:_Exactly.

Q:_And_like_in_China,_too?

A:_I_told_you,_China's_a_good_economic_competitor._Cuba,_on_the_other
hand,_is_not.

Q:_How_come_Cuba_isn't_a_good_economic_competitor?

A:_Well,_you_see,_back_in_the_early_1960s,_our_gov
ernment_passed_s
ome
laws
that_made_it_illegal_for_Americans_to_trade_or_do_
any_business_wit
h
Cuba
until_they_stopped_being_Communists_and_started_be
ing_capitalists
like_us.

Q:_But_if_we_got_rid_of_those_laws,_opened_up_trad
e_with_Cuba,_and

started
doing_business_with_them,_wouldn't_that_help_the_C
ubans_become
capitalists?

A:_Don't_be_a_smart-ass.

Q:_I_didn't_think_I_was_being_one.

A:_Well,_anyway,_they_also_don't_have_freedom_of_r
eligion_in_Cuba.

Q:_Kind_of_like_China_and_the_Falun_Gong_movement?

A:_I_told_you,_stop_saying_bad_things_about_China._Anyway,_Saddam
Hussein
came_to_power_through_a_military_coup,_so_he's_not
_really_a
legitimate
leader_anyway.

Q:_What's_a_military_coup?

A:_That's_when_a_military_general_takes_over_the_g
overnment_of_a
country
by_force,_instead_of_holding_free_elections_like_w
e_do_in_the_Unit
ed
States.

Q:_Didn't_the_ruler_of_Pakistan_come_to_power_by_a
_military_coup?

A:_You_mean_General_Pervez_Musharraf?_Uh,_yeah,_he_did,_but_Pakistan
is
our_friend.

Q:_Why_is_Pakistan_our_friend_if_their_leader_is_i
llegitimate?

A:_I_never_said_Pervez_Musharraf_was_illegitimate.

Q:_Didn't_you_just_say_a_military_general_who_come
s_to_power_by
forcibly
overthrowing_the_legitimate_government_of_a_nation
_is_an_illegitim
ate
leader?

A:_Only_Saddam_Hussein._Pervez_Musharraf_is_our_friend,_because_he
helped
us_invade_Afghanistan.

Q:_Why_did_we_invade_Afghanistan?

A:_Because_of_what_they_did_to_us_on_September_11t
h.

Q:_What_did_Afghanistan_do_to_us_on_September_11th
?

A:_Well,_on_September_11th,_nineteen_men?_Fifteen_of_them_Saudi
Arabians?
hijacked_four_airplanes_and_flew_three_of_them_int
o_buildings,
killing
over_3,000_Americans.

Q:_So_how_did_Afghanistan_figure_into_all_that?

A:_Afghanistan_was_where_those_bad_men_trained,_un
der_the_oppressi
ve
rule
of_the_Taliban.

Q:_Aren't_the_Taliban_those_bad_radical_Islamics_w
ho_chopped_off
people's
heads_and_hands?

A:_Yes,_that's_exactly_who_they_were._Not_only_did_they_chop_off
people's
heads_and_hands,_but_they_oppressed_women,_too.

Q:_Didn't_the_Bush_administration_give_the_Taliban
_43_million_doll
ars
back
in_May_of_2001?

A:_Yes,_but_that_money_was_a_reward_because_they_d
id_such_a_good_j
ob
fighting_drugs.

Q:_Fighting_drugs?

A:_Yes,_the_Taliban_were_very_helpful_in_stopping_
people_from_grow
ing
opium_poppies.

Q:_How_did_they_do_such_a_good_job?

A:_Simple. _If_people_were_caught_growing_opium_poppies,_the_
Taliban
would
have_their_hands_and_heads_cut_off.

Q:_So,_when_the_Taliban_cut_off_people's_heads_and
_hands_for_growi
ng
flowers,_that_was_OK,_but_not_if_they_cut_people's
_heads_and_hands

off_for
other_reasons?

A:_Yes. _It's_OK_with_us_if_radical_Islamic_fundamentalist
s_cut_off
people's_hands_for_growing_flowers,_but_it's_cruel
_if_they_cut_off

people's_hands_for_stealing_bread.

Q:_Don't_they_also_cut_off_people's_hands_and_head
s_in_Saudi_Arabi
a?

A:_That's_different._Afghanistan_was_ruled_by_a_tyrannical_patriarchy
that
oppressed_women_and_forced_them_to_wear_burqas_whe
never_they_were_
in
public,_with_death_by_stoning_as_the_penalty_for_w
omen_who_did_not

comply.

Q:_Don't_Saudi_women_have_to_wear_burqas_in_public
,_too?

A:_No,_Saudi_women_merely_wear_a_traditional_Islam
ic_body_covering
.

Q:_What's_the_difference?

A:_The_traditional_Islamic_covering_worn_by_Saudi_
women_is_a_modes
t
yet
fashionable_garment_that_covers_all_of_a_woman's_b
ody_except_for_h
er
eyes
and_fingers._The_burqa,_on_the_other_hand,_is_an_evil_tool_of
patriarchal
oppression_that_covers_all_of_a_woman's_body_excep
t_for_her_eyes_a
nd
fingers.

Q:_It_sounds_like_the_same_thing_with_a_different_
name.

A:_Now,_don't_go_comparing_Afghanistan_and_Saudi_A
rabia._The_Saudis
are
our_friends.

Q:_But_I_thought_you_said_15_of_the_19_hijackers_o
n_September_11th

were
from_Saudi_Arabia.

A:_Yes,_but_they_trained_in_Afghanistan.

Q:_Who_trained_them?

A:_A_very_bad_man_named_Osama_bin_Laden.

Q:_Was_he_from_Afghanistan?

A:_Uh,_no,_he_was_from_Saudi_Arabia_too._But_he_was_a_bad_man,_a_very
bad
man.

Q:_I_seem_to_recall_he_was_our_friend_once.

A:_Only_when_we_helped_him_and_the_mujahadeen_repe
l_the_Soviet
invasion_of
Afghanistan_back_in_the_1980s.

Q:_Who_are_the_Soviets?_Was_that_the_Evil_Communist_Empire_Ronald
Reagan
talked_about?

A:_There_are_no_more_Soviets._The_Soviet_Union_broke_up_in_1990_or
thereabouts,_and_now_they_have_elections_and_capit
alism_like_us._We
call
them_Russians_now.

Q:_So_the_Soviets_?_I_mean,_the_Russians_?_are_now_our_friends?

A:_Well,_not_really._You_see,_they_were_our_friends_for_many_years
after
they_stopped_being_Soviets,_but_then_they_decided_
not_to_support_o
ur
invasion_of_Iraq,_so_we're_mad_at_them_now._We're_also_mad_at_the
French
and_the_Germans_because_they_didn't_help_us_invade
_Iraq_either.

Q:_So_the_French_and_Germans_are_evil,_too?

A:_Not_exactly_evil,_but_just_bad_enough_that_we_h
ad_to_rename_Fre
nch
fries_and_French_toast_to_Freedom_Fries_and_Freedo
m_Toast.

Q:_Do_we_always_rename_foods_whenever_another_coun
try_doesn't_do_w
hat
we
want_them_to_do?

A:_No,_we_just_do_that_to_our_friends._Our_enemies,_we_invade.

Q:_But_wasn't_Iraq_one_of_our_friends_back_in_the_
1980s?

A:_Well,_yeah._For_a_while.

Q:_Was_Saddam_Hussein_ruler_of_Iraq_back_then?

A:_Yes,_but_at_the_time_he_was_fighting_against_Ir
an,_which_made_h
im
our
friend,_temporarily.

Q:_Why_did_that_make_him_our_friend?

A:_Because_at_that_time,_Iran_was_our_enemy.

Q:_Isn't_that_when_he_gassed_the_Kurds?

A:_Yeah,_but_since_he_was_fighting_against_Iran_at
_the_time,_we
looked_the
other_way,_to_show_him_we_were_his_friend.

Q:_So_anyone_who_fights_against_one_of_our_enemies
_automatically
becomes
our_friend?

A:_Most_of_the_time,_yes.
i
Q:_And_anyone_who_fights_against_one_of_our_friend
s_is_automatical
ly
an
enemy?

A:_Sometimes_that's_true,_too._However,_if_American_corporations_can
profit_by_selling_weapons_to_both_sides_at_the_sam
e_time,_all_the
better.

Q:_Why?

A:_Because_war_is_good_for_the_economy,_which_mean
s_war_is_good_fo
r
America. _Also,_since_God_is_on_America's_side,_anyone_who_
opposes_war
is_a
godless_un-American_Communist._Do_you_understand_now_why_we_attacked
Iraq?

Q:_I_think_so._We_attacked_them_because_God_wanted_us_to,_right?

A:_Yes.

Q:_But_how_did_we_know_God_wanted_us_to_attack_Ira
q?

A:_Well,_you_see,_God_personally_speaks_to_George_
W._Bush_and_tells
him
what_to_do.

Q:_So_basically,_what_you're_saying_is_that_we_att
acked_Iraq_becau
se
George_W._Bush_hears_voices_in_his_head?

A._Yes!_You_finally_understand_how_the_world_works._Now_close_your
eyes,
make_yourself_comfortable,_and_go_to_sleep._Good_night.

Q:_Good_night,_Daddy.

	10-06-2003 08:11									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Fez UR, that is your own personal opinion. I suggest you reread the Art of War while you are at it too. I think Sun Tzu if alive today would agree with how Bush has handled things.

Answer my question Fezzie Pezzie.