09-06-2003 03:16									#1
	ODA: Our Diplomatic Problems Support Apolyton

Fellow Storminans:

I have been involved in GS from early on and I would like to offer some insights that I believe could help our diplomacy.....


1- We are overly confident
Let me say we ALL know CIV3 well enought to compete, some can easily dominate SP. Know it well enough, as a team that we are fluid and confident in just about any Civ 3 situation (SP). This allows us to be firm, critical and direct (objective and confedent) about the Rules (units, techs, costs, etc) and Strategy (Tatics, Macro, Micro management, etc). The difference is that we ALL can whoop the AI.
In MP, the rules change. We understand this, but we have proved inept at the new set of rules.

We piss people off because we act like we have no downside (or play-up our downside ) But we do, we have a problem. We are so confident about our game play and honor code, we are sub conciously thinking our game play can save us. I know I am out on a limb with what I just said. I hardly know any of you. Judge for yourself. We do not think to relate because....


2- We are not properly sesitized to the other nation
The AI does not exist. We are not used to RELATING to the AI. We MANIPULATED it.
HUMANS.... Prefection has no place in human nature (besides an idealized concept) and is outright unwelcome in group dymanics. Groups are NEVER perfect.


Diplomacy Rule No. 1
we must REALIZE our opponent is a sensitive, emotional, time constrained, insecure (we all are, somewhere, somehow, about something...unless you are lying to yourself) human with an immense sense of pride, dignity, honor. They do not like to loose, Love to win, hate embarrasment. Wants respect. Unpredictable, but prone. Then put that person in a group of similar people..... Yikes

The list can go on and on.

3- We come across as arrogant bullies... We appear to be terrible negotiators
We do and arrange and plan things with so much thinking and detail that our ideas get rejected because we came up with them. We come up with this plan (the in-game optimial us-and-them agreement), present it and wonder why it is rejected? Because the did not have a chance to PLAY. They were not allowed a voice and "discover" it on thier own along with us.

Diplomacy Rule No. 2
Negotiation (and diplomacy) is not.. here is a great offer take it, modify it or reject it....
Nor is it "Do this or that at your own risk"
It is..

Hi how are you? Would you like to make deal? What do you have? we have this. We 'd like to have that. What do you want for it? When can it happen? Are you sure?...Deal

This way you can exert less influence at each step and guide the process
Do ya see the difference?

4-Our remidies have not been properly targeted.
The stories have helped a little, but it is still "removed" from our diplomacy. Good PR, but not diplomacy. In the discussions where we would actually consider the "world view", not many were focused around the heart of the issues, I think we were addressing symptoms as opposed to the root cause.


4-Efficeincy is not Diplomacy.
Diplomacy is a process. Say something too soon, and it is blown. Say it the wrong way and it is over. Do it right and the world opens like a flower in the morning. Nothing should be posted in the general forum with out either strong concesus or FAM go-ahead... It has cost us too much already.



Anyway That is what I have for now.
I have to go soon and want to check in with the VOX message....

Please discuss...

Mss

	09-06-2003 03:55									#2
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I couldn't agree less on some of the replies in the public message thread, we're quite out of line in terms of concucting diplomacy. However, I don't share your pessimistic view regarding the relations we have with all the teams in general. For example, we were just invited by both ND, and GoW for a chat, in this time when it is so popular to "hate" us, perhaps it is a sign that things aren't so.

In fact, UnOrthOdOx said in one of his last PMs (I don't recall whether or not I logged that one, it might have contained alot of unrelated stuff about Jung and the game) that he finds diplomacy conduction with this team the most enjoyable of all- this could be outright flattery, but I have a sense that UnO is not the one to do so.

We also had a long correspondence with HotE of the GoW, and I consider our relations with them to be fairly good. Our attempt at a tech alliance with Lego was a worthy one, and I do remember several compliments coming from them. True, we might have been overly enthusiastic at that time, which might have scared them off, but I do think that was a step at the right direction, and a true diplomacy conduction.

I think this team knows how to run a good diplomacy- what we definitely need is more collaboration in the FM, and do more of what we did and seemed to work. Togas' slander about our isolationism has no real basis, and I'm sure everyone outside RP knows that.
Keeping in mind our hubris is always good, but I don't think we need to revise our entire diplomacy effort, just do more of it, in an effort to make connection and not necessarily make deals.

	09-06-2003 04:04									#3
	Re: ODA: Our Diplomatic Problems Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed 2- We are not properly sesitized to the other nation The AI does not exist. We are not used to RELATING to the AI. We MANIPULATED it. HUMANS.... Prefection has no place in human nature (besides an idealized concept) and is outright unwelcome in group dymanics. Groups are NEVER perfect.

A good list of thoughts, IMO. The one quoted above is the best.

In discussing our relations with other teams, we have always assumed that if we do things honorably and fairly, then they should have nothing to complain about concerning us. The problem is that we have rarely taken the other teams' point of view on things. What we consider to be "right" and "just" and all that may not be the same as some other team. Our expectation that we can lay down the ground rules and play by them perfectly has grown out of our habit of manipulating the AI. "If I do this, I get this effect" is not always a true when dealing with humans, even if it seems like the right thing to do (expecting other teams to treat us fairly, for instance).

I'm not sure where we go from this. My humble suggestion is that we collectively realise that our diplo is in shambles at this point, and work real hard at kissing some arse. Unless we can get a foothold on Bob very soon, we simply do not have the resources to neglect diplomacy, or even continue as we have previously.

It's perhaps unfair that we're in this situation. I believe our diplomacy and dealings with other teams were pretty good initially. But now we're the "bad boys", and, for our continued success, we have to shake that image.


Dominae

	09-06-2003 04:08									#4
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Zeit, I think that you are right.

I am only speaking in extreams to make some points.

It is important that we all listen to our instincts and think how we would feel if we were outside reading what we tend to put out there.

Dominae, You would make a good diplomat. You tend (from your posting history ) to understand the "other side" from a human level

Mss

	09-06-2003 04:09									#5
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I agree with you both.

We are an easy target of slander, remember. Thus, even though we may have very good diplo relations with individuals (esp. in chat), the public forum, literally, is a dangerous place for us.

Using the USA as an example, think of personal relationships between, say, senior personnel of the US State Dep't and its equivalent in France & Germany, versus the nonsense that goes on in the UN.

(please, no political discussion, it's just an example, and if it shows my bias, sorry, but please let it go )

So let's stay on track with our formal diplo efforts, including personal / semi-personal relationships... but let's also think a LOT more about what get's posted in public fora.

	09-06-2003 04:11									#6
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zeit, I disagree. Our reputation is tainted, and no team would would hesitate at the chance to take us out (thankfully, we're on an island!). Ideally, we would not have so much publicity, either good or bad. The fact that other teams are contacting us is no more than an indication of our fame, IMO.


Dominae

	09-06-2003 04:16									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I'm not sure where we go from this. My humble suggestion is that we collectively realise that our diplo is in shambles at this point, and work real hard at kissing some arse.

quote: Originally posted by Theseus -We are an easy target of slander, remember. -So let's stay on track with our formal diplo efforts, including personal / semi-personal relationships... -Let's also think a LOT more about what get's posted in public fora.

	09-06-2003 04:26									#8
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quote: no team would would hesitate at the chance to take us out

I don't know how you got to this decisive conclusion. Being contacted doesn't mean we're just famous, it also means we have a chance to understand and be understood, and I'm sure those who sent their invitation realize that, and that it motivates them like it motivates us.

For example, the chats we've had with the GoW- they didn't like Vox, and thought we were allies, because of our tech partnership. We couldn't understand how they got to this conclusion, and were quite shocked with the accusation. Both teams suffered from a lack of understanding, on worked according to a different set of rules.
After the chat, however, I did feel like something was learned on both sides, and that tensions were reduced. It wasn't just saying hi, and not specifically negotiating anything, it was getting to understand each other, which is what we both wanted to (or so I believe).

	09-06-2003 13:14									#9
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Actually, what I see happening currently is that Bobians are realising that Vox is going down hard, soon. They are scrambling because that disrupts their power equations. That is why they are suddenly more talkative, I think.

Other than that, yes, I agree with most of what MSS has said and wants to do.

	09-06-2003 18:34									#10
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I think a lot could be helped by having more of those little chats, like the ones recently with RP. It typically generates goodwill.

I agree our diplomatic position isn't great right now, and I actually agree with what Dominae posted in the public forum thread a lot more than I let on. After my first post, which was designed to get a reaction from RP, my main purpose was damage control. But I should probably just try to keep my trap shut, being a general, not a diplomat.

-Arrian

	10-06-2003 01:40									#11
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quote: Actually, what I see happening currently is that Bobians are realising that Vox is going down hard, soon. They are scrambling because that disrupts their power equations. That is why they are suddenly more talkative, I think.

I havn't really thought about from that perspective, and really makes sense. As this thread is not about foreign intention, asesssment, but more on the "what to do" affair- we should probably discuss this: How do we want to represent the new GS?

-The one that is aware of its great power, it's continental domination, and is also aware of the fear this invokes in other teams. We can't allow ourselves to say: "we're not that powerful", but we must do more than not saying that.

Please add your ideas on this issue- the aftermath of a crisis is a perfect opportunty for a public "face-lift".

	10-06-2003 01:48									#12
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But we AREN'T that powerful. Our "continent" is just a large island.

-Arrian

	10-06-2003 02:12									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian But we AREN'T that powerful. Our "continent" is just a large island. -Arrian

True, but once we "own" it, we will need to keep a low profile and build, build and build. We must appear content with our continent for a while until another opportunity presents itself...

I did tell RP last night that we would satisfied with posessing our island. I just do not know how long befor we aren't satisfied.

Mss

	10-06-2003 02:16									#14
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quote: I did tell RP last night that we would satisfied with posessing our island. I just do not know how long befor we aren't satisfied

	10-06-2003 02:27									#15
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I wonder if we could somehow manage to hole up and squeeze enough out of our island to win without making any further territorial acquisitions.

Frankly, gaining a chunk of Bob and keeping it ain't gonna be a walk in the park. Our GA is pretty much blown, whereas everyone else has yet to have theirs (besides Vox, who are doomed). If we invest our precious resources in the military assest necessary for a Bobian expedition, failure of such an expedition essentially means failure in the game overall.

On the other hand, if we go builder, we may be vulnerable to invasion and/or be out-built by the other teams due to their superior land (Lego in particular).

Anyway, we have little reason to get cocky.

-Arrian

	10-06-2003 02:43									#16
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True Arrian:

that is why we need to sit tight, build our infra-structure and look for the opportunity to get involved in a conflict of our choosing, but not of our agression. We have no reason to be cocky, but we do have reason to be calm, collected, confident to e able to dedend out lands from foreign invaison. By teh time it is an issue, I am confident that we would be an awful place to be for a foreign invader.

But...we must watch out for our apparent tendency to be appear cocky

Mss

	10-06-2003 02:44									#17
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quote: Anyway, we have little reason to get cocky.

Very true.

I share your worries about the future prospect, but it doesn't look like it now. Let's look at the pure 'here and now' facts: We have the strongest army on the planet. We had the economy to bring the former strongest army on the planet to its knees in about 15 turns, while at the beggining we were caught completely off-guard...

Not to mention our move in Inchon and Inchoff- this has shown to the world we're not just expert economist, but also capable tacticians.

The way it looks now- we are a very dangerous and powerful nation. We should stage our diplomacy accordingly.

	10-06-2003 02:49									#18
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My eventual hope is to carve out a piece of lego for ourselves in a world wide invasion. They are the top dog in this game. We are just a king of some hill. We must not forget that.

I think that we will have 1000 years of peace with lego still... befor the world will muster the resolve and the forces to do something.


Mss

	10-06-2003 03:06									#19
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quote: Originally posted by zeit The way it looks now- we are a very dangerous and powerful nation. We should stage our diplomacy accordingly.

A key point.

	10-06-2003 03:16									#20
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quote: Originally posted by zeit The way it looks now- we are a very dangerous and powerful nation. We should stage our diplomacy accordingly.

I don't see it that way at all. If I was GoW, ND or Lego (and to a lesser extent RP) I would fear nothing from GS. How can we threaten them? Certainly not militarily - and that's all that really matters.

	10-06-2003 03:30									#21
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet I don't see it that way at all. If I was GoW, ND or Lego (and to a lesser extent RP) I would fear nothing from GS. How can we threaten them? Certainly not militarily - and that's all that really matters.

Military= economy + tactic
Tactily and economicly we are (or were in great shape). Just look at our kill ratios and the speed in which we responded to a major military threat. We will lose any economic edge in 1000 years or so .... We will always have our tactics to be quite a pain to any of our foes....

We need to make up for future economic slow down (potentially)with current diplomatic manuvering....

Mss

	10-06-2003 03:42									#22
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed Militayr= economy + tactic

Riders + Ansars = much better than anything we have, or anything we will be able to get for a long long time.

I understand your point, though.

	10-06-2003 03:57									#23
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FP, you are absolutly right, we are entering a peroid of military mediocraty (unit-wise).

Again, we need to settle into it and make the most of it. During this peroid, our diplomacy will be a key in keeping us out of conflicts we do not want to be a part of...

Humility and congeneality will help

Mss

PS. Can you e-mail me the save from the PBEM 3 gam filled in. I want to see how it is going...

	10-06-2003 04:06									#24
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quote: PS. Can you e-mail me the save from the PBEM 3 gam filled in. I want to see how it is going...

I don't have your e-mail address. Sorry, I cleared out the e-mails you sent me earlier - gotta try and keep those tiny hotmail inboxes empty for the screenshots from Nathan.

PM me your e-mail address and I'll forward you the next turn I receive.

	10-06-2003 04:11									#25
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FP:
Will do...

	10-06-2003 04:19									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian But we AREN'T that powerful. Our "continent" is just a large island. -Arrian

Also, because we will not trade our WM (which has saved us so far), no one seems to believe this. Lego won't take issue because it will turn and bite them.

Mss

	10-06-2003 14:20									#27
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quote: Our GA is pretty much blown, whereas everyone else has yet to have theirs (besides Vox, who are doomed).

I wouldn't say it's blown, having a island with no mutual borders is a pretty powerfull position. One that I prefer to ND's position for example.

	10-06-2003 14:22									#28
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Re. Invasions:

I didn't do a full count, but we are close to preventing anyone from entering our island completely until marines , there is no other civ able to do so.
(note hat outposts prevent naval landings too

	10-06-2003 16:41									#29
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Can outposts be destroyed by naval bombardment? (not really pertinent, just wondering as I've never actually built/attacked one)

	10-06-2003 16:45									#30
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quote: Originally posted by alva Re. Invasions: I didn't do a full count, but we are close to preventing anyone from entering our island completely until marines , there is no other civ able to do so. (note hat outposts prevent naval landings too

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you suggesting that we cover every coastal land tile with an outpost?