09-06-2003 09:31									#31
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Zaire was then renamed to the Democratic Republic of Congo after the fall of Mobutu Sese Seko. Does anybody know what "Mobutu Sese Seko" means? I know it is not the former dictator's real name... but I know it has a really odd meaning to it.

	09-06-2003 09:33									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy I cannot see that helping feed Eastern Africa, bring the rains, restore democracy (Mugabe doesn't do actual torturing) or in any way guarantee that his successor is more successful.

Haha, even the Guardian reports about how Mugabe beats and tortures members of the political opposition. So you don't condiers electrocuting people to the point of convulsions or even death to be torture? What about beating people to death or raping wives/daughters of men who oppose his rule? Or maybe you prefer illegal deportations (even after the supreme court has ruled them to be illegal) or imprisionment without trial and/or execution without trail?

	09-06-2003 09:37									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy I cannot see that helping feed Eastern Africa, bring the rains, restore democracy (Mugabe doesn't do actual torturing) or in any way guarantee that his successor is more successful. You think one bullet would end the problems of Zimbabwe? That's Mugabe's argument. He's just not sure which bullet it is, so he keeps firing them.

Rain has only a very small part to do with the famine since infrequent rains are a common occurance and haven't caused famine in the last 100 years. It has to do with Mugabe illegally (so says the country's supreme court) stealing all the farm land from white and black farmers who oppose his racist agenda and then giving it to his cronies and supporters. He doesn't even provide them with seeds or fertalizer so nearly all of the land lies fallow and in a subsistance agriculture enviroment that means everybody starves.

	09-06-2003 09:38									#34
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Fez
Zimbabwe has not once been a democracy has it?
QUOTE]

Actually, Mugabe was a democratically elected leader until the late 90's. So in fact Zimbabwe was a democracy until the late 90's and the Congo war.

As for Congo: named after a river. There is a vast difference between naming a country for a river, and a relatively hideous human being like Rhodes.The black majority will never return to naming their country after a racist git.

	09-06-2003 09:41									#35
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But that isn't the point.. has Zimbabwe been a true democracy? Has Mugabe at any time during his dictatorship respect any human rights? Yes there was an election recently.. but it was rigged...

So does anybody know what "Mobutu Sese Seko" means?

	09-06-2003 09:44									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Fez But that isn't the point.. has Zimbabwe been a true democracy? Has Mugabe at any time during his dictatorship respect any human rights? Yes there was an election recently.. but it was rigged...

You misunderstand. Mugabe has been president since independence, and most of the time he won in totally fair elections. In fact, Zimbabwe was always pointed to as an African democratic success story until the late 90's, when Mugabe and his supporters begun to undermine the true democracy the country had for about 15 years.

	09-06-2003 09:46									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It's to bad it's illegal to assassinate foreign politicians. It seems like a bullet at midnight could solve the worst of Rhodesia's problems; if it goes through Mugabe's head.

We need to fix the mess of Africa, the first thing we should do is to replace old colonial borders with borders that represent the ethnic groups. I am sick of hearing the crap between muslims and christians in Sudan and Nigeria. I don't give a sh!t if the people think it's "western imperialism", we are fixing the MISTAKES of imperialism!

	09-06-2003 09:48									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Haha, even the Guardian reports about how Mugabe beats and tortures members of the political opposition. So you don't condiers electrocuting people to the point of convulsions or even death to be torture? What about beating people to death or raping wives/daughters of men who oppose his rule? Or maybe you prefer illegal deportations (even after the supreme court has ruled them to be illegal) or imprisionment without trial and/or execution without trail?

Don't put words in my mouth Oerdin. You may not like what I spit back at you.

And you seem to think that assassinating Mugabe would stop these terrible things happening.

Where's your guarantee it wouldn't make things worse?

I'm not saying do nothing - just assassination is an unsure way to ensue stability and a fairer system.

	09-06-2003 09:55									#39
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Here's another take on assassination; - if one is legit, all are legit seen from the perspective of the assassin.

So JFK, Martin Luther King, Abe Lincoln, even Jesus Christ were all fair targets.

Can you assume that position? I can't.

	09-06-2003 10:02									#40
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well, from the perspective of the assassin, not all are legit, i'd wager.

why? because a lot of said assassins kill because of political motivations. abe lincoln was assassinated by a southerner who didn't much like how the war ended up. mlk, by a southerner who didn't much like how the movement was ending up.

jesus wasn't killed by an assassin.

targets are legitimate to a particular assassin if and only if it makes sense within their world view-- which means i'd like to see if you can prove that john wilkes booth would have assassinated jefferson davis, or even considered him a legitimate target.

======

as for mugabe... he's a right nasty cvnt, but i don't think america has the capacity to rebuild such a country. if we did decide to take him out, we could no doubt defeat his military with a small force, but we'd need strong support from both local and world powers to set up a peacekeeping force.
else, it'll end up being like afghanistan, and iraq, if we screw up there too.

	09-06-2003 17:14									#41
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Why South Africa hasn't used its position as local superpower to do someting about Mugabe is beyond me.

	09-06-2003 18:59									#42
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The situation in Zimbabwe is sad, to be sure. But the US won't do anything more than yell at him from a few thousand miles away, because 1) we're overstretched elsewhere; 2) Somalia; 3) Not strategically important enough; 4) there are others higher on our list.

Britain can't really afford to step in, since Zim is their former colony. Who does that leave?

-Arrian

	09-06-2003 20:03									#43
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Mugabe signed up to the 1980 peace deal that ended white rule which was to last for ten years and stuck to it so Zimbabwe was pretty much a democracy for that time. Once the ten years of the agreement were up he set about changing the country into a one party state and the mess it is today.

As for South Africa, the USA/UK/EU countries are not prepared to upset the South Africans so whilst SA persists with seeking a negotiated solution to the Zimbabwe problem and continues to be the main source of food imports to Zimbabwe the rest of the world isn't going to do anything.

	09-06-2003 20:52									#44
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No one has answered my question yet. What is it about Mugabe that so angers people where there are much worse dictators all around the world? Mugabe's a thug, but he's not the worst ruler Rhodesia/Zimbabwe's ever had. In fact, compared to everyone before him, he's pretty good.

Meanwhile, SLORC has disappeared the Nobel Peace Prize winning dissident who won the elections ten years ago, before SLORC canceled them.

	09-06-2003 22:42									#45
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che,

I for one chose not to answer your question because, while I happen to agree that Mugabe probably doesn't crack the top 10 tinpot dictator list, I'm not overly fond of justifying inaction by pointing to other nasty fellows and saying "but what about them?"

Mugabe's actions have harmed non-whites in Zimbabwe worse than the whites. Black farm workers have apparently taken a terrible beating, and so has anyone connected to the MDC. Then add in the overall toll of the economic collapse, and there is quite a bit of non-white suffering going on in Zimbabwe. Many of the articles I've read mention this.

Having said all that, I do agree that the Zimbabwe situation gets more press than it would if there were no whites involved. That's unfortunate. Some of it, I think, stems from the linguistic/cultural connection the white farmers have with the US & UK audiences (they speak English, and in the case of Britain, they are the legacy of British colonialism). Therefore it is easier for us to experience their stories - to imagine what it would be like for us. Like I said, though, that covers "some of it."

I like that Gore Vidal quote, btw.

-Arrian

	09-06-2003 23:15									#46
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quote: We need to fix the mess of Africa, the first thing we should do is to replace old colonial borders with borders that represent the ethnic groups. I am sick of hearing the crap between muslims and christians in Sudan and Nigeria. I don't give a sh!t if the people think it's "western imperialism", we are fixing the MISTAKES of imperialism!

So I take it you were in favor of the Iraq war then?

And do you know what your plan would do? Instead of ending warfare in Africa, it would explode it!

	09-06-2003 23:17									#47
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I think the term for what south africa is is not "local superpower" but "regional great power", at least in 19th century european vocabulary.

south afria hasn't done anything because they've been black racists for quite some time now, too

	10-06-2003 00:05									#48
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Sure che you may be right. Sure Mugabe may be better than the last leaders. But he is still a dictator who has to go. It is like in Liberia, Charles Taylor needs to be thrown out. I hope the rebels sweep to victory but of course that might mean another dictator. It is just pointless to do anything in these countries.. it is just one dictator after another.

	10-06-2003 00:16									#49
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Charles Taylor, hopefully, is on his last legs. The rebels are entering the capital as we write. That man is deserving of all the hatred the world can spare.

	10-06-2003 00:59									#50
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what's the name of Liberia's despot, again?

	10-06-2003 01:38									#51
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I thought that's who Che was talking about, Ecth.

-Arrian

	10-06-2003 01:39									#52
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I supposed so, just wasn't sure.

	10-06-2003 03:15									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion I think the term for what south africa is is not "local superpower" but "regional great power", at least in 19th century european vocabulary.

19th century?

quote: south afria hasn't done anything because they've been black racists for quite some time now, too

Well i wouldn't go that far but the problem is ANC still has some sympathy for him it seems. And they've got some land issues themselves so they wouldn't want their blacks to think they're on the farmers' side.

	10-06-2003 03:17									#54
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yes, 19th century... before that, great powerism was not an option

	10-06-2003 03:19									#55
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but you could still use the term in the 20th century and today as well, no?

	10-06-2003 03:23									#56
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yeah, it emerged then

Huntington also used it. local superpower is bullshit though

	10-06-2003 03:27									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Where's your guarantee it wouldn't make things worse?

There are never any guarantees in life.

	10-06-2003 03:27									#58
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Che, re: Mugabe, I think race is ALWAYS going to be touchy, no matter who discriminates on the basis of it. If Mugabe was a white doing it to only blacks there would be an outcry. Race discrimination just hits a nerve with the west, because we'd been doing it for so long.

I don't mind taking out Mugabe, but also Taylor should go, the Myanmar rulars, and a bevy of others... and maybe we will overthrow more dictators, if the neocons win out in the end.

	10-06-2003 03:28									#59
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yeah I know. but you could say south africa is a superpower compared to its neighbours. kind of like compared to liechtenstein, switzerland is a superpower .

	10-06-2003 03:30									#60
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The neo-cons are good on the mount, but their landings so far suck ass. And if you screw up the landing enought times, you will break your legs.

Only the international community as a whole could make such a difference, and neo-cons are rather poor at enlisting aid, due to thier self-centered navel gazing.