09-06-2003 10:17									#1
	I'm Going Conservative Remove this text

I've been wrestling with my conscience lately and have finally accepted the fact that I'm no longer a left-leaning centrist.

Some friends of mine, all active protest types, got a nasty shock this weekend when it was inadvertently revealed* that I was in fact a supporter of the Gulf War II, and a big fan of the Laura Ingram radio show**.

The ball started rolling much faster several weeks ago, when we all went to see a documentary on Noam Chomsky and 9-11. They loved it. I hated it. They couldn't understand why I did not like Chomsky, and I wondered if they were watching the screen as me. What's to like?, I thought.

They were very upset when I said I thought America had done a pretty good job helping people all over the world. I freely admit there have been problems, most of which I blame on Henry Kissinger.

It further came out that I thought:

1) Dennis J. Kucinich, their favorite son, was a doofus and completely out of touch with both America and reality. A recycled vegetable oil powered bus? WTF?

2) Al Franken is a woodchuck and his evidence and argument against Bill O'Reilly was a about as devoid of logic and wit as possible. I'm no O'Reilly fan, but for Franken to claim he's any closer to objectivity is a joke. He was mildly amusing in the 70s-80s when I was a kid, with his "Al Franken Decade" bit, but I'm grown up now. I accept that he was never funny.

3) Bill Clinton was a sexually-harrassing scumbag and Hillary is an evil carpetbagger.

4) Even if the 2000 election was stolen, which I still believe it was, I was happy Al Gore wasn't in the White House.

5) Michael Moore was a manipulative a-hole. I constantly see him claim himself a "life-time" member of the NRA, as if he had been a member of the NRA for life. Newsflash: He bought a lifetime membership right before he made Bowling for Columbine. Why do people who like Moore refuse to see the spin he puts on this fact? And all the other facts Moore manipulate as well? His book was crap as well.

6) I've always liked Richard Nixon (This hurt them the most, I think). I've even read several of Nixon's books and thought they were quite good.

7) Liberals have ruined education, not conservative. Last year, I was reading some documents*** from the Eisenhower Program, the section of the Dept of Education dealing with reforming the educational process for K-12 students. Their stated purpose was to destroy the dominant ideology in the United States. Okay, but what do you replace it with? Some ideology must be dominant in the US. There were no answers found in the document. I went to public schools and a public university, and I feel I basically educated myself. Stop coddling these kids. You cannot manufacture self-esteem. It must be earned.

8) Marijuanna is a gateway drug and shouldn't be legalized. The pro-legalization people like to make it seem harmless, but having watched others, and myself, deal with drug problems in the past, I can tell you it isn't harmless.

9) The borders should be restricted. Yes, I recognize our special relationship with Mexico and the immigrants that come from there. Mexicans have always played an important part in building America, and the fact that we are going to bilingualism reflects our acceptance of this. Very few else need apply, IMO. Don't send us women who have no rights in their own country then complain when we ask they remove their veil so we can get a driver's license photo. Have you no gratitude?

10) No one in America is being persecuted. All my life people have been telling me "the government is gonna get you, the government is gonna get you". From my experience, people are more free than ever. You can say whatever you like, and if the people don't listen, just sue them. Nobody's speech is being curtailed, so stop complaining that it is.

11) No, the government cannot help you solve your personal problems. When it tries they just get worse.

The job I've had the last six months takes me out of the big city**** several times a week, and I travel all around small towns in Missouri and Illinois, where I've been meeting a lot of interesting people. It's refreshing to be surrounded by people who do their jobs, live their lives, and seem to be pretty happy about it. They don't constantly harp on anti-government rhetoric, or worse, Illuminati theories.

I still have some problems with the corruption level in the Bush administration and America's corporate sector, which I feel is a way too high, but I do feel genuine reform is coming.

That's where I'm at right now.

* Blame the oatmeal stout
** Her bitter right-wing sarcasm turns me on
*** I went through a phase where I ordered every free government publication I could find offered on the web. Interesting reading.
**** Yes, St. Louis is a big city. Have you seen that Arch thing we got? That qualifies us.

Last edited by Static Universe on 09-06-2003 at 10:33

	09-06-2003 10:23									#2
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Congradulations and welcome to the Dark side.

	09-06-2003 10:25									#3
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It always amazes me how people can flipflop around the political spectrum.

What's wrong with consistency? Maybe some people just don't put much thought into it.

	09-06-2003 10:51									#4
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1. if kucinich can make a recycled vegetable oil powered bus work, and work cheaply, more power to him. if he chooses to make a company out of it, give him the same breaks that detroit gets.
2. al franken is a funny @ss, but should be taken for as much credibility as o'reilly, who's a real @ss.
3. bill clinton was a horndog, hillary was a carpetbagger, and the bush co's take on civil rights worries me.
4. al gore is a tin man, and needs to be dunked head-first into a vat of oil.
5. michael moore is a funny, manipulative, liberal a-hole. as long as limbaugh, hannity, and o'reilly get to spin facts, so should moore.
6. nixon's a loon. a smart one, but i value his character about as highly as i view clinton's, which is to say none at all.
7. liberals may have destroyed education, but i don't think any plan the conservatives have put forth will fix it.
8. i hate the smell of pot, but if people can keep it out of my air, i don't give a damn what they do. legalize it, ban it, the result's the same--people will smoke it because they think it's harmless. as long as they don't turn to crime, let them.
9. borders should be restricted, yes. the case of that id woman should be thrown out, with her license revoked until she follows our law--and the law of virtually every other islamic state where women drive, in which their faces are uncovered for the photo. translations for government documents are a waste of money--learn english if you're going to live and work in the us, because english should be the common means of interfacing here. if an asian coming to america has to learn the goddamned english language to get by, so should every latino--spanish is far less of a jump to english than say, korean, japanese, chinese, vietnamese, or hmong.
10. free speech is something that should be defended with gusto. the aclu, as foolish as it may appear sometimes, does serve its purpose. as do groups like the eff; people who feel persecuted need someone to turn to who will listen and help them, even if they really have nothing to complain about.
11. the government doesn't help personal problems: social workers and child services, for instance. it does help, however, with other ones: federal financial aid for college, for instance; perhaps even living wage, but the jury's still out on that.

being moderate is the way to go. not conservative, not liberal.

	09-06-2003 10:55									#5
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As people grow older, they tend to get more conservative.

Imagine what Marx was like in his youth

But I hope you are embracing all of Conseratism, not just the points that appeal to you.

Same goes for lefties really. They harp on about Utopia but wouldn't recognise it if it kicked them in the face.

	09-06-2003 11:19									#6
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I really don't know what to say.....Other than:

quote: 5) Michael Moore was a manipulative a-hole. I constantly see him claim himself a "life-time" member of the NRA, as if he had been a member of the NRA for life. Newsflash: He bought a lifetime membership right before he made Bowling for Columbine. Why do people who like Moore refuse to see the spin he puts on this fact? And all the other facts Moore manipulate as well? His book was crap as well.

Yes, but.....Do you really think Bill Oreilly, Rush Limbaugh, or even George Bush is any better?

"Iraq threatens the world......with weapons of mass destruction."

quote: 6) I've always liked Richard Nixon

quote: 7) Liberals have ruined education, not conservative.

Last I checked, the conservatives were the ones who voted to cut education spending. Not the liberals Here in Logan....all the schools shut down for the day because there were no teachers at all. In Utah it's predicted that by the time 2010 swings by us, the classroom size will jump from 38 (it's present) to about 80 because Utah just isn't building the schools because it has no funding (and teachers aren't coming aboard).

But those are liberal lies aren't they!!! Utah is known for its liberalism, so of course the liberals would accuse the conservatives about the educational state in Utah. But it's not true. Of course. Seriously.

quote: 8) Marijuanna is a gateway drug and shouldn't be legalized. The pro-legalization people like to make it seem harmless, but having watched others, and myself, deal with drug problems in the past, I can tell you it isn't harmless.

I can also attest to this (I know quite a few.....people who have 1st hand experience with the drug). However, Marijuanna has it's legal uses, and to prevent those who can benefit it from getting it just because there are people who misuse the drug is like saying....Well.....Because Prozac can be misused, we should ban it completly

quote: 9) The borders should be restricted.

You do realize the life-blood of America is BECAUSE of immigrants?

Yes, Germany, France, Russia, Korea, China, Japan, India.....Their scientists will go elsewhere. But thats bad for the US. Very very bad

quote: Nobody's speech is being curtailed, so stop complaining that it is.

Well, I was never harmed during WW2.....So all those Jews who claim that Nazi Germany threw them in concentration camps should just stop complaining, cause it never happend.

Just because YOUVE never had the experience, doesn't mean that no-one else has

quote: They don't constantly harp on anti-government rhetoric, or worse, Illuminati theories.

Yes, only the left has rhetoric. The Republican Party always tells the truth. The democrats are Counter-revolutionary anti-american capitalists!!!! communists!!!!

Qi Lai

quote: but I do feel genuine reform is coming.

I agree.

BTW, did you know that certain republicans are now saying that the WoMD can't be found in Iraq because............they shipped EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM off to both Syria and Iran, and that we must invade them immediately because they "threaten the world with dangerous weapons of mass destruction".

	09-06-2003 11:28									#7
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Holy **** - I'm not moving to Utah!!!

"4) Even if the 2000 election was stolen, which I still believe it was, I was happy Al Gore wasn't in the White House."

So tampering with the constitution to make sure that it's 'your man' in power and not the other guy is ok with you? Basically destroying the democratic foundations this nation was built on is all-systems go so long as the 'right' people are in power??? Yes - you belong in the conservative side, because frankly... WE DON'T WANT YOU.

	09-06-2003 11:29									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy As people grow older, they tend to get more conservative.

That is true. Do you know why? Because as people grow older, they resist change.....So, if a child is raised a liberal, they will have LIBERALISTIC VALUES but be a conservative in that their views cannot be changed at all

And BTW.....Most people accept what appeals to them. I don't accept EVERYTHING that far-left wing democrats say.....Banning all guns would be a stupid thing to do, and allowing aboritions even during the last days of pregnancy is murder. Republicans aren't always lying, and pornography.....

A lot of people percieve me as ULTRA ULTRA left.....But thats mainly me trolling. In fact, the Iraq war wasn't nearly as bad as I say it is, tax cuts aren't completly HORRIBLE, and yes part of the economy is clintons fault. Clinton was not the most desirable of persons (I consider even looking at porn cheating on someone you love....But actually acting it out!!!! ), and I'm no atheist (A mix of Buddhism and Christianity for me), etc etc......But i'm not NOT extreme on certain things. I do think communism is a glorious path, and that the Iraq war was for oil, and that the government IS lying to us presently.

Because I don't completly accept conservatism, but nor do I completly accept liberalism, nor do I completly accept centerism....What am I?

	09-06-2003 11:33									#9
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Wow, it's like an impromptu questionnaire!

1) Yes, how dare he attempt to find all-natural alternate fuels! He should learn to use good, honest, old-fashioned fossil fuels like them decent folk out in the country, who do their jobs with smiles on their faces.


2) Franken be funny.

3) Clinton was a flawed but still very good President. I don't see why everyone hates Hillary so much. If she wants to stay with him, that's fine with me. She seems like a good enough person, regardless.

4) I like Gore. He's smart and calm. Why does the President have to be showy?

5) Moore is definitely manipulative. I'm not his biggest fan.

6) I don't care much for Nixon.

7) What is the dominant ideology you speak of?

8) I believe in the argument that marijuana is a gateway drug because, since it's illegal, you have to go buy it from a drug dealer, who will lead you to worse things. If you bought it at the corner store, then it might not be such a problem.

9) Immigration is the lifeblood of the Americas.

10) I would actually have to agree with Tass on this one. To say that no one is being persecuted is a little over the top, even for a conservative standpoint.

11) Well... Okay.

	09-06-2003 11:40									#10
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Once you pull your head out of your ass its amazing how the view changes.

	09-06-2003 11:54									#11
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Of course, coming from you those words are merely hypothetical...

	09-06-2003 12:00									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Yes, but.....Do you really think Bill Oreilly, Rush Limbaugh, or even George Bush is any better?

Not at all. O'Reilly and Limbaugh are gasbags, and both on the way out, IMO. Their time has past. Franken is an elitist out of touch with the simple folk.

quote: Last I checked, the conservatives were the ones who voted to cut education spending. Not the liberals Here in Logan....all the schools shut down for the day because there were no teachers at all. In Utah it's predicted that by the time 2010 swings by us, the classroom size will jump from 38 (it's present) to about 80 because Utah just isn't building the schools because it has no funding (and teachers aren't coming aboard). But those are liberal lies aren't they!!! Utah is known for its liberalism, so of course the liberals would accuse the conservatives about the educational state in Utah. But it's not true. Of course. Seriously.

The educational system is wasting most of the money now. The system needs to be reformed and then it will work fine under current spending levels. The system should be returned to the state and community level.

quote: I can also attest to this (I know quite a few.....people who have 1st hand experience with the drug). However, Marijuanna has it's legal uses, and to prevent those who can benefit it from getting it just because there are people who misuse the drug is like saying....Well.....Because Prozac can be misused, we should ban it completly

I support medicinal use and mild decriminalization, but not the complete lifting of the prohibition some are trying to foist on us. It will only lead to more problems. Crime. Addiction. More breakdown of the family.

quote: You do realize the life-blood of America is BECAUSE of immigrants?

True, but during our finest years, the simple fact is we knew to keep the riff-raff out. I say turn them back at the gates. We seem to have forgotten this. And I don't mean those with darker skin than mine. I mean those who leech off our fine system and then stab us in the back with their words and actions. If you don't want to be part of us, then don't come here.

quote: Well, I was never harmed during WW2.....So all those Jews who claim that Nazi Germany threw them in concentration camps should just stop complaining, cause it never happend. Just because YOUVE never had the experience, doesn't mean that no-one else has

When America throws someone in a concentration camp, let me know.

quote: Yes, only the left has rhetoric. The Republican Party always tells the truth. The democrats are Counter-revolutionary anti-american capitalists!!!! communists!!!!

The Democratic party has been taken over by people who no longer act in the interest of their constituency. They talk, talk, talk, all the while selling them down the river.

quote: BTW, did you know that certain republicans are now saying that the WoMD can't be found in Iraq because............they shipped EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM off to both Syria and Iran, and that we must invade them immediately because they "threaten the world with dangerous weapons of mass destruction".

Who is to say this isn't true. I forgot: Saddam and his sones were such a wonderful human beings.

	09-06-2003 12:05									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy As people grow older, they tend to get more conservative.

Funny thing is, I started out as a conservative. I was a College Republican in, er, college, and cast my first vote for George Bush I. Then I lost my way...

	09-06-2003 12:18									#15
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"Franken is an elitist out of touch with the simple folk."

Says the person who supports silver-spooned Bush...

"When America throws someone in a concentration camp, let me know."
Ever heard of 'reservations'?

"True, but during our finest years, the simple fact is we knew to keep the riff-raff out."
Excuse me? Riff-raff like my great gran parents? Yeah - you've got a real great attitude. And when where these supposed finest years???

"The system should be returned to the state and community level."
Oh, how I love this argument.. Isn't this the one where the rich people live together and have beautiful, well funded public schools which are renowned for their academic excellence, whereas other, less prosperous areas are left to languish? Oh, please, tell me more of this delightful scenario...

	09-06-2003 12:21									#16
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quote: When America throws someone in a concentration camp, let me know.

while nowhere near as harsh as the nazi concentration camp, america did throw the japanese into the internment camps during ww2.

	09-06-2003 12:21									#17
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quote: Originally posted by cinch 8) I believe in the argument that marijuana is a gateway drug because, since it's illegal, you have to go buy it from a drug dealer, who will lead you to worse things. If you bought it at the corner store, then it might not be such a problem.

And what we are proposing to do in Canada will only make that worse. It will not be illegal to possess it, but it will be illegal to sell it. That means there could very well be growth in the number of people who want to use it, but they will all be driven to criminals who may well introduce them to 'better' stuff.

Liberalism. Gotta love it.

	09-06-2003 12:26									#18
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quote: Not at all. O'Reilly and Limbaugh are gasbags, and both on the way out, IMO. Their time has past. Franken is an elitist out of touch with the simple folk.

what makes you think franken is not on his way out as well?

quote: True, but during our finest years, the simple fact is we knew to keep the riff-raff out. I say turn them back at the gates. We seem to have forgotten this. And I don't mean those with darker skin than mine. I mean those who leech off our fine system and then stab us in the back with their words and actions. If you don't want to be part of us, then don't come here.

some who come and complain do so because they wish to change this place for the better. is that such a crime?
and this riff-raff bit... i wasn't around for it, but knowing a small bit of history leads me to the conclusion that at several points during our history, we labelled different groups as riff-raff and sought to prohibit their entry into the us. the irish come to mind; the italians, the southern europeans; then an outright prohibition for the east asians during a large part of the first half of this century...

quote: The Democratic party has been taken over by people who no longer act in the interest of their constituency. They talk, talk, talk, all the while selling them down the river.

how is the republican party acting in my mother's interest (she is a republican)? it has systematically hindered her ability to teach as a teacher by cutting funding; it has cut taxes for everyone, including her, but she has not see a dime of this money returned to her; the recent restrictions on rights for target minorities, which she is not a member of--not yet, anyway...?

	09-06-2003 12:26									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 A lot of people percieve me as ULTRA ULTRA left

You are ULTRA ULTRA left.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Liberalism. Gotta love it.

I don't even get worked up any more because I know they're wrong.

	09-06-2003 12:27									#20
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REEFER MADNESS!!! My friends, when attempting to get the manja, have never, ever gone to or even had the opportunity to get weed from some big bad wolfesque drug dealing figure - it gets circulated around the community, and you call up your friends or what have you...

Anyone up for some liquid hot ice?

	09-06-2003 12:28									#21
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither And what we are proposing to do in Canada will only make that worse. It will not be illegal to possess it, but it will be illegal to sell it. That means there could very well be growth in the number of people who want to use it, but they will all be driven to criminals who may well introduce them to 'better' stuff. Liberalism. Gotta love it.

Yep, thats a problem on any extreme. Some diehard republicans say we shouldn't give it to anyone who could benefit from it medically speaking.

Conservatism. Gotta love it.

quote: Not at all. O'Reilly and Limbaugh are gasbags, and both on the way out, IMO. Their time has past. Franken is an elitist out of touch with the simple folk.

At least you acknowledge that

quote: The educational system is wasting most of the money now.

Most of the computers in my sons school are text based, and the "newer" ones are those Apples with the first GUI. The school doesn't have enough money to upgrade to even 8 MB MS-DOS computers, much less computers that these very students will have to work with once they get out of the educational system. The textbooks are 20 years old (including the history books. Meaning theyre currently being taught that the Soviet Union still exists, and that theres a cold war going on). Currently there is an averege of about 40 students per classroom, and there have been 4 instances of knives being drawn at the school. One teacher quit because of it all.

Taking away money isn't quite the answer either

quote: I support medicinal use and mild decriminalization, but not the complete lifting of the prohibition some are trying to foist on us. It will only lead to more problems. Crime. Addiction. More breakdown of the family.

Ok, yeah, I agree with you there. I mean, on the flipside, LSD also has a few medical uses......But......

quote: We seem to have forgotten this. And I don't mean those with darker skin than mine. I mean those who leech off our fine system and then stab us in the back with their words and actions. If you don't want to be part of us, then don't come here.

But then the American image of "land of the free, home of the brave" will be lost, and resentment will increase. Words are just that, words and if turn people away because of that...... I say let everyone in unless we can prove WITHOUT A DOUBT that they have malicious intentions.....

quote: When America throws someone in a concentration camp, let me know.

They've thrown thousands into jailcells after Sep11. Does that count? They are CONCENTRATING them....

quote: The Democratic party has been taken over by people who no longer act in the interest of their constituency. They talk, talk, talk, all the while selling them down the river.

Yep. I completly agree. The democratic party has been completly and totally reduced to rubble.

quote: Who is to say this isn't true.

Ignoring you putting words in my mouth....To say that the ENTIRE stockpile was simply shipped away and that we need to invade THEM now is QUITE silly, and I'm surprised that anyone believes it.

It's like me invading YOUR HOUSE looking for drugs, and saying you shipped them off to your neighbors (which is why I couldn't find them) and me going into their houses as well. American intelligence has been proven wrong time and time again including on the WoMD issue (If the US knows, then they would tell the world. Their excuse to the UN (on why they can't disclose the WoMD in IRAQI locations) is that it will endanger intelligence operatives lives. But for some reason, we didn't know they were moved until NOW. If there were really moles in the Iraqi government, we would know that they were moved and we would've invaded. Also ignoring the fact that Bush said Iraq could kill the world x times over with these.....Which would endanger many more lives than the operatives.

To sum it up:

-If we had moles in Iraq, we would've known the weapons were being moved and would've attacked right then.
-The excuse given to the UN for not giving out the information is that it would endanger the lives of our operatives. However the counter to this point it.....Bush himself said Saddam could kill the world x times over. 6 Billion consitues a greater loss of life than a few hundred operatives in iraq.
-Over 3000 Iraqi civilans have died. No evidence of the development, harbouring, or intention to move the WoMD have been found at all.

With all this, it's very difficult to believe a group of diehard republicans.

	09-06-2003 12:28									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: When America throws someone in a concentration camp, let me know. while nowhere near as harsh as the nazi concentration camp, america did throw the japanese into the internment camps during ww2.

As did the British to Germans in Britain, Canada to Japanese, and many other nations in various circumstances. It was something that most everyone thought was a good idea at the time. Fifth columns and what-not.

Let's not speak of what the Japanese did to nationals of enemy combatant nations.

	09-06-2003 12:31									#23
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Were Native Americans fifth columners as well?

	09-06-2003 12:31									#24
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quote: As did the British to Germans in Britain, Canada to Japanese, and many other nations in various circumstances. It was something that most everyone thought was a good idea at the time. Fifth columns and what-not.

of course. but i was letting su know that the us has this in his past--he was asking, after all.
it does appear, as well, that the nazis believed that they were the ones victimized by die juden, as well, nee?

quote: Let's not speak of what the Japanese did to nationals of enemy combatant nations.

remember who you're talking to~ technically, although korea wasn't a combatant...

	09-06-2003 12:33									#25
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quote: Originally posted by cinch Wow, it's like an impromptu questionnaire! 1) Yes, how dare he attempt to find all-natural alternate fuels! He should learn to use good, honest, old-fashioned fossil fuels like them decent folk out in the country, who do their jobs with smiles on their faces.

It's like the difference between saying how great the future will be or showing up to work in a Star Trek uniform. One is acceptable to the mainstream. One isn't.

quote: 2) Franken be funny.

Did you see the Stuart Smalley movie?

quote: 3) Clinton was a flawed but still very good President. I don't see why everyone hates Hillary so much. If she wants to stay with him, that's fine with me. She seems like a good enough person, regardless.

BJs in the Oval Office is a little more than a flaw. Hillary is a power-hungry monster. She just stays with him because it looks better on her resume. They don't even live together anymore. She's a bad example to women everywhere.

quote: 4) I like Gore. He's smart and calm. Why does the President have to be showy?

Gore is a robot who will say anything to get elected. I remember watching him during the primaries and thinking to myself "Is their anybody whose friend he isn't?"

quote: 7) What is the dominant ideology you speak of?

IIRC, they don't go into detail, but are against "dominant" ideologies in general, which they view as diversity training. There's no marketplace for ideas, just ideas. Great philosophy, lets all be diverse by accepting every idea as valid, ie by being coerced to think alike.

quote: 8) I believe in the argument that marijuana is a gateway drug because, since it's illegal, you have to go buy it from a drug dealer, who will lead you to worse things. If you bought it at the corner store, then it might not be such a problem.

My logic is that the thrill eventually wears off and you have to go on to "bigger and better" things to recapture the feeling. I've seen it a many, many times. Alcohol is the same way, but leads mostly to more alcohol use. But alcohol vs. drugs is a whole different argument I don't want to get into.

quote: 10) I would actually have to agree with Tass on this one. To say that no one is being persecuted is a little over the top, even for a conservative standpoint.

For speech to have meaning, some must be persecuted for it. There isn't a government in history that hasn't gagged someone. It's a harsh reality, but the system must go on.

	09-06-2003 12:34									#26
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quote: Let's not speak of what the Japanese did to nationals of enemy combatant nations.

Nobodys denying it, though

quote: Originally posted by Mr. President You are ULTRA ULTRA left.

Is it because I'm not a republican?

	09-06-2003 12:50									#27
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 "Franken is an elitist out of touch with the simple folk." Says the person who supports silver-spooned Bush...

Bush is more in tune with his people than any leader n history. He makes America resonate.

quote: "When America throws someone in a concentration camp, let me know." Ever heard of 'reservations'?

Last I heard those people could leave whenever they wanted.

quote: "True, but during our finest years, the simple fact is we knew to keep the riff-raff out." Excuse me? Riff-raff like my great gran parents? Yeah - you've got a real great attitude. And when where these supposed finest years???

Exactly, people like my great-grandparents, who came here from Italy and Ireland, the poorest of the poor, and worked hard, and became part of this system. They added the good they brought with them. They weren't down at City Hall pitching fits because they had mildly conform to our ways.

quote: "The system should be returned to the state and community level." Oh, how I love this argument.. Isn't this the one where the rich people live together and have beautiful, well funded public schools which are renowned for their academic excellence, whereas other, less prosperous areas are left to languish? Oh, please, tell me more of this delightful scenario...

Federal funding and control of schools has broken up communities. No one has any pride in their schools anymore because they are completely removed from the process, and no one wants to hear them.

	09-06-2003 13:06									#28
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quote: Bush is more in tune with his people than any leader n history. He makes America resonate.

well, if by resonate you mean sharply divide...

quote: Last I heard those people could leave whenever they wanted.

not those in the internment camps.

quote: Exactly, people like my great-grandparents, who came here from Italy and Ireland, the poorest of the poor, and worked hard, and became part of this system. They added the good they brought with them. They weren't down at City Hall pitching fits because they had mildly conform to our ways.

they were, however, considered "riff-raff", and a sizeable portion of the populace did want to keep them out... they were, after all, thought of as "drunks", "crooks", and worst of all (at least in some circles) "papists".

quote: Federal funding and control of schools has broken up communities. No one has any pride in their schools anymore because they are completely removed from the process, and no one wants to hear them.

federal funding and control of schools has to be properly done. in many regions, where there are special programs, such as the magnet program, you end up with schools that are much stronger academically as well as helpful in establishing a sense of community. granted, such programs can't be done everywhere, and it's probably more an exception rather than a rule, but it is possible.

	09-06-2003 13:07									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed what makes you think franken is not on his way out as well?

Experience. He's been around for 25 years and is still kicking.

quote: some who come and complain do so because they wish to change this place for the better. is that such a crime? and this riff-raff bit... i wasn't around for it, but knowing a small bit of history leads me to the conclusion that at several points during our history, we labelled different groups as riff-raff and sought to prohibit their entry into the us. the irish come to mind; the italians, the southern europeans; then an outright prohibition for the east asians during a large part of the first half of this century...

As a fourth generation American of Irish-Italian extraction, I can say that nobody gave them any handouts. They came here, worked hard, learned the system, and a generations later are solid integrated into the American way of life. They paid their dues.

The riff-raff I speak of anarchists and evil-doers who come to bite the hand of freedom.

quote: how is the republican party acting in my mother's interest (she is a republican)? it has systematically hindered her ability to teach as a teacher by cutting funding; it has cut taxes for everyone, including her, but she has not see a dime of this money returned to her; the recent restrictions on rights for target minorities, which she is not a member of--not yet, anyway...?

I can't speak for your mother. She must have some reason. Ask her and I'm sure she'll tell you.

	09-06-2003 13:12									#30
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This can hardly be a surprise, at least to you. Your nick gives you away!