10-06-2003 03:38									#31
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quote: You don't think that the gap between voluntary submission and forced submission to perceived necessities is a huge difference?

From my perspective as a libertarian, yes there is, but in this context, the result is the same ...submission to an idea.

Nonetheless, I believe that when people choose to take this action, rather than being "forced" to, its wholly more disturbing, because in the former case, we could blame those who are instigating this obligation, but in the latter, it is far more widespread, and something that should be tackled on the grassroots level, as it is down to that individual and the choice of that individual.

	10-06-2003 03:41									#32
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quote: The poll was asking whether the male should be on control on the basis of being male, not whether the person who brings the most money home should be in control on the basis of being that person.

And what if the participants didn't understand that?

quote: Just because one provides and is the primary wage earner, does that necessarily mean that one buys a position of authority?

In short, I believe so. They are providing for the family. It is their money that is being used to pay for everything. So of course their opinion should count a little bit more when making the big, tough decisions on how the money should be spent.

quote: Often now it is the women who are working as the primary earner AND looking after the kids

Then the woman should call the shots in those homes. Not hard.

	10-06-2003 03:46									#33
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quote: So of course their opinion should count a little bit more when making the big, tough decisions on how the money should be spent

For the money, perhaps, but say, for the children, I would say it is the woman who should get the most power in the traditional family model.

Nonetheless, a family must survive on more than money, and I dont believe that simply because someone performs one role, that this person should get more power than someone performing an equally important, maybe more so, role.

	10-06-2003 03:50									#34
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quote: For the money, perhaps, but say, for the children, I would say it is the woman who should get the most power in the traditional family model.

And they usually do .

Most men when asked about who is the 'master of the house' will think money, I bet you. And I bet most of the men who answered thought master refered to money issues.

	10-06-2003 03:52									#35
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I happen to believe that BOTH the man and wife should co-rule the home.

But don't people have the right to believe whatever they want? So what if 42% of Americans asked in the poll think that men should rule the home?

	10-06-2003 03:54									#36
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men are pretty lame brained individuals then

	10-06-2003 03:57									#37
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quote: But don't people have the right to believe whatever they want?

Yes but people have the right to critique each other, question and critisise them. Their right to run their home the way they wish is not in dispute, what is in dispute is whether that is good or bad, such a debate is inherently subjective, but of course, it has no objective outcomes, thus is completely harmless.

	10-06-2003 03:58									#38
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I really dont see this matter as a money issue. If I buy a house, I want my wife to absolutely agree with the house I intend to buy because we will live in it together. And it is the same for all important issues such as schooling the children, choosing a doctor, etc.

	10-06-2003 03:58									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Most men when asked about who is the 'master of the house' will think money, I bet you. And I bet most of the men who answered thought master refered to money issues.

How does it explain the gap between Canada and the USA ? Are Candian and yank men that different that they don't think first about the biggest moneybringer of the house ?

I really think most people were thinking about the gender by itself, not about the consequences of the gender. I really think a huge majority of the 'male-power' people are backwards for real and do believe in the male having a 'more equal' position than his wife.

	10-06-2003 04:01									#40
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One finds that a lot, a group that has been dominent resents the upward equality of the formerly suppressed group, and creates a backlash. We see that with neo-racists like the BNP, those who resent the acceptability of homosexuality, and of course here, the male supremacists, aided in America by a very male-centric culture.

	10-06-2003 05:24									#41
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equal households are a bunch of bullshit

women still fall for men to "protect" them. women still fall for men to "lead" them.

Often I see personals for women who want "alpha" males. They don't want men to be pussies. They want me to be strong leaders.

Men should be in charge of the household if he is capable.

And I do believe that the high divorce rate is in part due to the lack of respect women have for men who are weak. They often leave their husbands for someone more masculine.

Last edited by Dis on 10-06-2003 at 05:31

	10-06-2003 05:28									#42
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all you guys are *****-whipped

	10-06-2003 05:29									#43
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I have no problem with the man being the master of the house if the woman wants it. By the same token, I have no problem with the woman being the master of the house if the man wants it.

I have a problem with thinking all families should follow the same modell, where the man is the boss

	10-06-2003 05:53									#44
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Dissident, I was wondering when someone was going to point out the obvious that most women like strong, capable man. They like man who is taller than they are, smarter than they are and who earns more money than they do. Likewise, most men like women who submit to their authority in the so-called "big" matters. Women can succeed in business and other careers and still have happy marriages, so long as they do not become more successful than their husbands.

There are exceptions to this rule, of course. These men and women are typically driven by ideology and are constantly finding their own instincts. Very few these have happy relationships or happy marriages if in fact the woman is more capable, more intelligent or taller than her husband.

Further, in the real world of business, politics and life, no one respects a man who is not the true leader of his family. And despite all the talk about women's equality, women are not respected by other women or even by men when they are successful in business. Other women tend to believe that a successful woman "slept" her way to the top. Men believe that successful woman are "b*tches."

None of this, of course, has anything to do with religion. It has everything to do with human nature.

	10-06-2003 05:58									#45
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Ned :

There is no need to be driven by ideology to have a familial power structure a tad more elaborated than what you are saying. The man and the woman can both be leaders in their fields of expertise. And the decisions can be taken at the unanimity of bith, rather than having someone deciding for the other.

As for the "man must be smarter than his wife in order to have a happy family", do you sincerely believe that crap ?

	10-06-2003 05:58									#46
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Dinodoc, I like your location field.

	10-06-2003 06:00									#47
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smarter probably isn't the right word, as women are often smarter than men. But more successful is a better word to use.

	10-06-2003 06:08									#48
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Dissident and Ned seems to have a considerable experience of women ...

But how is it possible that they meet only women less smart tha they are? What happens to the 75% of women that would not marry them (and their likes)?

	10-06-2003 06:12									#49
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well it helps I'm smart . I know there are many women smarter than me, but I've yet to meet a woman as smart as me.

But it is unreasable to think that women always go with men smarter than them. What would the smart women do then? They would go without.

I do like smart women, they are much more interesting to talk to. But most smart women know enough not to go out with me .

And I have little experience with women. If anything, I'm one of the ***** whipped guys as well. I tend to treat women with respect and equalness. But when I do that, they usually leave me for a guy that treats her like crap. Women just seem to be more attracted to guys who take charge. They certainly don't want nice guys like me who treat them as equals.

	10-06-2003 06:18									#50
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You definitely haven't met the same women as me then...

	10-06-2003 06:21									#51
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quote: I tend to treat women with respect and equalness. But when I do that, they usually leave me for a guy that treats her like crap.

You ain't alone in that aspect, my friend (not me, I'm not experienced enough for that, but plenty of my buddies).

	10-06-2003 06:23									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident well it helps I'm smart . I know there are many women smarter than me, but I've yet to meet a woman as smart as me. But it is unreasable to think that women always go with men smarter than them. What would the smart women do then? They would go without. I do like smart women, they are much more interesting to talk to. But most smart women know enough not to go out with me . And I have little experience with women. If anything, I'm one of the ***** whipped guys as well. I tend to treat women with respect and equalness. But when I do that, they usually leave me for a guy that treats her like crap. Women just seem to be more attracted to guys who take charge. They certainly don't want nice guys like me who treat them as equals.

I am not an expert, but you seems to confuse the decision process, which, with a smart woman must be shared IMHO, with the fact that some responsibilities are naturally one one side or the other. For instance, in case of danger the husband must naturally take the lead, and possibly the blow, and for this reason, a smart woman has to assess whether the guy will be able to take this responsibility.

	10-06-2003 06:29									#53
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no disagreement there

	10-06-2003 06:44									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Ned : There is no need to be driven by ideology to have a familial power structure a tad more elaborated than what you are saying. The man and the woman can both be leaders in their fields of expertise. And the decisions can be taken at the unanimity of bith, rather than having someone deciding for the other. As for the "man must be smarter than his wife in order to have a happy family", do you sincerely believe that crap ?

If a smarter woman marries a less intelligent or educated man, she can have a happy marriage so long as she "conceals" it, just as some women fake orgasims.

I give you Bill and Hillary Clinton as an example. There is no one who doubts that Hillary Clinton is extremely smart woman. However, everyone will agree also that Bill Clinton is more intelligent than to Hillary, particularly people who know the two well.

I also know this from personal experience. I have known more than on couple where the woman was very well educated while the man was not. Neither was very happy about the situation and you could see that this issues was really spoiling the relationship.

Imagine now that you are a father of a very well educted daughter. Would you object to her getting married to someone clearly "beneath" her. I bet you would, regardless of your feminist ideology.

	10-06-2003 06:47									#55
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Bill is not more intelligent than Hillary!!

she only stays with him for political reasons.

	10-06-2003 06:49									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident equal households are a bunch of bullshit

I was wondering when the chauvinazis would get here.

	10-06-2003 07:23									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Imagine now that you are a father of a very well educted daughter. Would you object to her getting married to someone clearly "beneath" her. I bet you would, regardless of your feminist ideology.

Indeed, I wouldn't like it, because I'd think my daughter could find better (actually, I'm more talking about someone who is "stupider" rather than "less educated").
However, if my daughter wanted to marry someone who is slightly less smart, and who obviously doesn't lead, I'd have no problem with it.

	10-06-2003 07:28									#58
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quote: Just more proof that atheism is more moral than religion.

Assumes that it is immoral for the man to be the head of the house, as well as for the woman wanting a man to be the head.

I'm surprised Lancer hasn't posted yet.

1. Head does not imply superiority in value, just a different role. Look at Christ's example, where the greatest among you should be servant to all.

Shi:

How do you interpret Ephesians 5:22?

"Wives submit to your husbands as to the Lord."

How many husbands are willing to accept the responsibility of Ephesians 5:25?

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her."

Do you realise that this means you should be willing to die for your wife as need be?

	10-06-2003 08:06									#59
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I've never been married, so I can't say much, but it seems to me that any couple is going to have a more dominant partner as a matter of course. For one or the other to be "master" doesn't necessarily mean flagellation, drinking, and keeping a harem locked in the basement, or whatever you guys are implying. It's primarily a measure of who wins the most arguments. Probably varies a great deal from couple to couple anyway. As it should, because some people just aren't intellectually fit to govern anyone or anything. If the man is a total moron of course the wife will naturally, and preferably, wind up in charge. In most marriages I imagine the man winds up as master in name, if not really in fact. But I don't really think there should be a set rule about this.
And if you Canadians don't like it you can go screw a beaver. So there.

	10-06-2003 08:38									#60
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc So it just means that they are more willing to experiment in the bedroom.

Gee, doesn't 'master' in the south mean the guy who doesn't pick the cotton?