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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:28
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Shi:
No I am not an inerrantist, although I am definitely a conservative when it comes to my biblical interpretations.
The problem with citing Galatians to defend your point is that Paul talks about everyone being brothers and sisters in Christ, neither male nor female divide one from the other.
Again, from Ephesians, just a bit later on, you see Paul talking about the union of the man and the woman in marriage, where the two become one flesh.
It would be helpful for me to cite this passage, from 1 Corinthians 12:12-26, to illustrate the point I alluded to earlier.
"The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by[3] one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it."
If there can be equality in value within the body of Christ, even when radically different roles for each individual within the body of Christ. The preacher is no better than the janitor.
The same is with the marriage relationship, someone should be the head of the family, and the passage in Ephesians suggests that the husband fill the role. What the 'head' of the family does will depend upon each individual family, and the talents available to the husband and the wife.
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Shi Huangdi
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Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:28
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obiwan:
No doubt we all have different positions to fufill in life. But keep in mind the context which the Galatians passage is here. If you want to apply your Corinithians passage to it; then are there also different roles for Jews and Greeks? For slaves and freeemen? Of course, most modern Christian wouldn't want there to be any slaves at all(except in the sense of us all being slaves to God). The Galatians passage furthermore doesn't say that men at women have seperate but equal roles, it says there is no man and woman.
Now as for the famed Ephesians passage. Most modern interpretations of that passage, including Pope JPII's interpretation suggest that that passage be viewed in light of Ephesians 5:21 that we all be subservient to each other, and in cultural and historical mindset of that time. Reading the whole of Ephesians chapter 5, we see that Paul is in a very broad sense urging the Ephesians to be "good", urging them to live their lives in accordance with teaching of God. Remember at that time women were assumed to be lesser then men, and not as rational or even intelligent, both the semitic and hellenic world had anti-female bias heavily in their society. Hence such a command for wives to be subject to their husband is only natural, just as we would tell children to obey their parents. Since we now know Women to be equal, intelectually and not just before God, I don't such a need for a command, and I think a marriage in which both partners treat each other as equals is not one that will anger God.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:28
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quote:
Since we now know Women to be equal, intelectually and not just before God, I don't such a need for a command, and I think a marriage in which both partners treat each other as equals is not one that will anger God.
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Lancer would be able to explain much more eloquently than I. There is no specific Biblical directive exhorting divisions between slaves and freedmen, both brothers in Christ, so no justification for a difference in roles. However, Ephesians seems to argue for the difference in roles between a man and a woman in a marriage. Just as a man can't give birth, the woman has different roles to fill.
What does 'head' entail? That's the question each family must decide for themselves, based on the individual talents of the husband and the wife. In some families, this may mean doing the financial work, in others, this may just mean protecting the wife.
A good analogy, (thanks, UR,) is one of a yin-yang. Both sides are equal, although they are not the same. Equality in value, though difference in function.
quote:
it says there is no man and woman.
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In the relationship with God, not necessarily in a marriage. That's why Paul has to make a specific directive regarding marriage.
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Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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I see men as being logical and emotional, women as being emotional and logical. The reason that women are over the children is the emotional. Within the family emotional nurtureing is the thing. The man on the other hand is the one who relates to the world for the welfare of the family, so logic prevails. I believe this reasonable set up, playing to everyone's strengths, is the reason why the man is refered to as head of the family.
The reason I don't get involved in debates of this nature very often is that one can set out a position, but that's all. There are as many takes on the bible as verses in it.
Answers are few in this life because faith is the point.
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JohnT
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Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:28
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 This thread is hilarious, and it's quite obvious that a number of you are... well, not married.
The fact is most marriages work like this: the man makes the decisions that the woman allows him to think he's made.
It's that simple. You're not going to buy a house that your wife hates... nor a car, nor almost anything else. You're not going to have kids until she wants to have kids. When she makes a decision that will change your life, that's when the decision is made.
She'll trust you on a few things, especially career, but even then you'd better maintain good faith and effort. 
For the most part successful families base their decisions sometimes on what makes Dad happy, sometimes on what makes Junior happy, but always on what makes Mom happy.
So that's the thing about control and power structures - listening to you kids, it seems that the "power ratio" between spouses in a marriage is either 100-0, 50-50, or 0-100.
I note that the study isn't weighted in regards to environmental and economic biases each region - for example, if males had the top salary 70% of the time in the Deep South, then that would silence a lot of yapping in this thread. The census site is down while I type this, so I cannot look this up unfortunately. 
Frankly, I'm of the opinion that 'most any family organization can raise successful and happy children regardless of its structure - hetero, homo, patriarchial, matriarchial, extended, whatever. As long as there is love and joy in the family, that's all that is necessary.
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Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:28
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
This thread is hilarious, and it's quite obvious that a number of you are... well, not married.
The fact is most marriages work like this: the man makes the decisions that the woman allows him to think he's made.
It's that simple. You're not going to buy a house that your wife hates... nor a car, nor almost anything else. You're not going to have kids until she wants to have kids. When she makes a decision that will change your life, that's when the decision is made.
She'll trust you on a few things, especially career, but even then you'd better maintain good faith and effort.
For the most part successful families base their decisions sometimes on what makes Dad happy, sometimes on what makes Junior happy, but always on what makes Mom happy.
So that's the thing about control and power structures - listening to you kids, it seems that the "power ratio" between spouses in a marriage is either 100-0, 50-50, or 0-100.
I note that the study isn't weighted in regards to environmental and economic biases each region - for example, if males had the top salary 70% of the time in the Deep South, then that would silence a lot of yapping in this thread. The census site is down while I type this, so I cannot look this up unfortunately.
Frankly, I'm of the opinion that 'most any family organization can raise successful and happy children regardless of its structure - hetero, homo, patriarchial, matriarchial, extended, whatever. As long as there is love and joy in the family, that's all that is necessary. |
The person who makes the money makes the decisions. If you've ever tried to sell anything door to door you know that. If you do sell door to door you have to sell to the person that brings home the bacon or you wont sell. The wife (usually the one who doesn't make the money) can't make the final decision.
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Shi Huangdi
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Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:28
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"There is no specific Biblical directive exhorting divisions between slaves and freedmen"
!!!
Ephesians 6:5-8:
quote:
Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ;
6 not in the way of eye-service, as men-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart,
7 rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to men,
8 knowing that whatever good any one does, he will receive the same again from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free.
9 Masters, do the same to them, and forbear threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him. |
Also from Paul,
1Tim. 6:1-5
quote:
Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain. |
Why adhere to Paul's directives about one institution then, marriage, but not to another, slavery?
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JohnT
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Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:28
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"If you've ever tried to sell anything door to door you know that. If you do sell door to door you have to sell to the person that brings home the bacon or you wont sell."
This pattern of behaviour is also consistent with marriages where both spouses believe the other also has the right to express an opinion. I did door-to-door selling* back when I was in college, and I'll agree: the sales were always easier (like I'd get 1 for 10 instead of 1-30) when both spouses were at home. However, it was always the woman that you sold to and her attentions were paramount: if she expressed no interest in the first minute or two, you never had a sale. Now I had a few call their husbands beforehand, but they usually relented: "Well, if you think we need them, and it will make you happy..."
"The person who makes the money makes the decisions... The wife (usually the one who doesn't make the money) can't make the final decision."
Well, in my marriage this isn't even true. Laura controls the household accounts, and manages them very well (I bet your checkbook doesn't get balanced daily! ), and while she doesn't "earn" a dime being a stay-at-home mother, she spends about 95% of all the money in the house w/o any input from me. The woman is a Godsend, no if, ands, or buts about it. 
*Pots and pans and various kitchen items for some warehousing firm based in Florida. I made maybe $2,000 that summer.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:28
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My parents divided it up like this:
My dad handles most of the investments (my mother would consult him on her 401(k) & IRA accounts, but ultimately make her own choices there), while my mother deals with day-to-day finances (read: bills).
My father hates bills, and would rather not see them. Plus, my mother is just incredibly thorough. So that works rather well for them.
My father, originally the main "bread winner" retired when I was 5 or 6, and was the stay-home parent from that time on. Though he always said it in a semi-joking tone, and my mother occasionally protested, he always said that it was my mom that ran the show. "She who must be obeyed."
As for purchases... well, my mom is partial to gadgets. My father's response to this is not to try and stop her, but rather to gently ridicule her about the uselessness of the gadget (and yeah, they're generally useless) once she's bought it.
-Arrian
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10-06-2003 08:40
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