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Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > Is it wrong to think the way I do? (POLITICALLY/ECONOMICALLY)
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Inverse Icarus is offline Inverse Icarus
Emperor
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May 2001
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Is it wrong to think the way I do? (POLITICALLY/ECONOMICALLY) Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

if you've listened to my various rants over the years, you most likely think i'm something of a communist, or perhaps a fascist, maybe a jigoistic american imperialist, or just generally a racist inconsiderate bastard. Now, some of that may have been trolling and the like, some of that might have been the real me, but I'd like some honest opinions here.

I am mainly a Socialist at heart. whatever nominclature you choose to assign to that is your call. I simply believe that social and political equality cannot be achieved without economic equality.

Now, thats highly debatable, but thats what i believe. so take it as you will. I simply believe that the rich have much more power than the common man in america, and i despise that fact with my very being. i see rich people somehow getting off the hook over and over again, whenever they get into trouble. i see the rich people runing thosands of lives and getting off nearly scott free (enron). politics is simply a rich man's game.

this has led me to a conclusion, which has gotten me much trouble in my little politically involved group of friends, which is simply that america may be called a democracy (or republic, if you will), people may be able to elect their leaders, but we are far from the "equality" that we appear to praise above all. i simply believe that the american government is a plutocracy, a government by the rich. i have coied the term in my little group, "a generious plutocracy", where the ruling rich upper class gives us whatever liberties and rights we want, so long as we do not infringe on their business too much.

again, this will be debated and torn to pieces by one side, and built up by another, but again, this is what i believe.

the problem is, the simpliest "argument"against anything like that, anything that badmouths america, is "if you don't like it, you can go someplace else". the sad thing is, this is the best that we have. even though i sit here and become disgusted by the huge gaps between rich and poor, and complain about how the rich seem to do whatever they want and get off, my life is good. there are no warlords killing millions of people. no major civil wars claimig civilians. i do not fear my government. and that, it appears, is enough for most people, enough for me.

so, here i am, loathing the system i exist in, but happy that i exist in it. i'm sickened by the very country i love.

now, that was deep, for me anyway, which leads to a little mroe shallow a problem, defining myself a clear ideology. i've just goe through life professing to be a communist, because it was an attention getter, the word makes people listen. Socialist doesnt have the same kick, but thats another discussion.

capitialism just seems, to me anyway, to go against everything america professes to stand for. to quote NoFx, "When one makes twenty million, ten thousand others lose".

i could go on and on, at length, on both why i am a socialist, and why i love america with all of my heart. am i wrong in doing so?

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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Sep 2001
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  Old Post 11-06-2003 07:12
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quote:

capitialism just seems, to me anyway, to go against everything america professes to stand for. to quote NoFx, "When one makes twenty million, ten thousand others lose".


Such thinking exposes a profound lack of understanding of basic economics. Economics is not a zero sum game instead it ends up being a competetion of seeing who can grow the pie faster.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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  Old Post 11-06-2003 07:16
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Yes, it is wrong. Why, I dunno.. I just wanna be a smartass .

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 11-06-2003 07:17
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The idea that in order to build wealth someone has to lose wealth is just completely false.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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  Old Post 11-06-2003 07:18
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Well yes, that is false... so is quoting a song to make a point .

Worthingtons is offline Worthingtons
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Jan 2002
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  Old Post 11-06-2003 07:28 Visit Worthingtons's homepage!
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Yes, but you cany deny that many make wealth due to the loss, and exploitation of others. It's the damn Fat Cats at the Top!! taking home 6 and even 7 figure salaries!! While others are on the Poverty line!!

These days companies whole existance depends on capitalising on the fears and weaknesses of other people, i mean take glutein free foods, some people over here who have an allergy to this are already poor but have to pay huge prices just to eat, while the owner of the company making it LIVES in the Savoy Hotel.

There is a massive lack of Equality, the poor are kept poor on the whole, and the Rich will be more ruthless by the day to keep hold of thier power and wealth.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 11-06-2003 07:41
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Poor are kept poor? Who exactly is keeping them poor?

VJ is offline VJ
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Dec 2001
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  Old Post 11-06-2003 07:53
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Capitalist conspiracy of Enron-Evildoers (TM)?

The Emperor Fabulous is offline The Emperor Fabulous
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Aug 1999
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  Old Post 11-06-2003 08:16
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As long as you don't give up your ideals, there's absolutely nothing wrong with loving your country

I feel exactly the same way

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 11-06-2003 08:17
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I doubt your average poor person has excess capital to invest in stocks; Enron style conspiracies or other wise.

Lung is offline Lung
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Mar 1999
time: 15:28
  Old Post 11-06-2003 08:48 Visit Lung's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
The idea that in order to build wealth someone has to lose wealth is just completely false.


It's just that the easiest way to make money is to take it from someone else. That's why holding someone up at gunpoint, forcing someone to work for free, ripping off customers or manipulating market prices are all basically stealing.

It goes without saying that if someone can act with impunity, they will (and so lies the moral of my next post.....). That's why we have laws not only against armed robbery, but laws for business as well. It also explains the beauty of democracy as well, as it makes everyone accountable in some way.

It's not the fault of capitalism, but capitalism without democracy is asking for trouble.

Tuberski is offline Tuberski
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Feb 2002
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  Old Post 11-06-2003 08:49 Visit Tuberski's homepage!
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Somebody has to be poor......always.

ACK!

JohnT is offline JohnT

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Mar 1999
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  Old Post 11-06-2003 08:50
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Is it wrong to think the way I do? Remove this text

The names have been changed to expose the ludicrous

I too was thinking about the other ways you can plot humanity on a graph, the great Bell Curves that affect and separate humanity. From the race curve that goes from darkest to lightest (or vice versa), to the wealth curve that goes from poorest to richest, to the coolness curve that goes from dorkiest to suaviest. Like many, I tried to find a group that it made a lot of sense to hate, and to, somehow, "get rid of" for the betterment of society.

And then I found it: the group that, if I were to argue for the eradication of the top 1% of, would benefit humanity from the great trickle down effect that would arise from their elimination:

Caloric consumers.

If we just eliminated, by throwing them into concentration camps and re-educational facilities, the top 1% of all fat people, we would save enough grain and meat to feed the bottom 15%, easily. The next time you see some 280 pound guy waddling home with a large Supreme pizza with extra-cheese, think about the fact that one pie has enough calories to sustain a Somalian family for 3 days. NFL teams would go back down to a more competitive weight, one where even guys like me can play.

This also prevents airliners and theaters from being improperly sued by people who's asses are too damned large for their single seats. Yes, aircraft seats are getting thinner, but we've also learned in the meantime that being large is no picnic for our health either - you've been supposed to have gotten skinnier along with the seats.

Most rich people are sickingly normal-weighted: too damned busy to eat, I guess. I doubt that my plan would put a damper on being rich, unless you own a lot of Conagra stock, or that one that always donates to the Repubs.

Therefore, in my world it's OK to be rich as long as you aren't fat! Who's with me!!!!????

----------

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Mar 2003
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  Old Post 11-06-2003 09:54 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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Re: Is it wrong to think the way I do? (POLITICALLY/ECONOMICALLY) Support Apolyton

quote:
Originally posted by Uber KruX
i could go on and on, at length, on both why i am a socialist, and why i love america with all of my heart. am i wrong in doing so?


No, you just want what's best for America. Not all of us have considered equality an unobtainable goal. Not all of us believe the shitty propaganda that is spewed from the right. Some of us want America to do better.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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  Old Post 11-06-2003 09:56 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Poor are kept poor? Who exactly is keeping them poor?


The system. Opportunity is a benefit dependant on wealth and social status.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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Apr 2000
time: 02:28
  Old Post 11-06-2003 10:00 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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YES YES YES! A commie, we know as uberkrux is losing faith in communism!

*goes off jumping up and down down the hallways*

quote:
Some of us want America to do better.


So you introduce leftism? Come Kidicious, you little Chavezista... give it a rest.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
So you introduce leftism? Come Kidicious, you little Chavezista... give it a rest.


You don't think that the Republicans are going to promote equality do you?

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


You don't think that the Republicans are going to promote equality do you?


So you just rip the wealth of those who earned it, and put it in your bank account.. so everybody is equally poor? Is your idol Hugo Chavez?

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez


So you just rip the wealth of those who earned it, and put it in your bank account.. so everybody is equally poor?


How the hell do you make poor people poorer by giving them money.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


How the hell do you make poor people poorer by giving them money.


Well of course what you are proposing will make the middle class poor.

In Venezuela, they did what you said. Now 94% of the country is poor, up from 45%.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Mar 2003
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
In Venezuela, they did what you said.


No they didn't. They didn't even ask for my opinion.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


No they didn't. They didn't even ask for my opinion.


Well never mind.. I better be going to bed...

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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  Old Post 11-06-2003 10:15 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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Just being a smart ass Fez. I don't know that much about Venezuela. You can screw things up with left wing policies if you don't do them right.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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May 1999
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  Old Post 11-06-2003 10:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Such thinking exposes a profound lack of understanding of basic economics. Economics is not a zero sum game instead it ends up being a competetion of seeing who can grow the pie faster.


Your argument does not counter his, they are not mutually exclusive. Further, it is too simplistic and ignores lots of variables.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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  Old Post 11-06-2003 10:22 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Just being a smart ass Fez. I don't know that much about Venezuela. You can screw things up with left wing policies if you don't do them right.


Left wing policies can be done right?

Look I really have to go to bed.. it is almost 2:30AM here.. lol..

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 11-06-2003 10:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
So you just rip the wealth of those who earned it, and put it in your bank account.. so everybody is equally poor? Is your idol Hugo Chavez?


Fez, would you mind backing up your statements, or are you going for the Bald Assertion Man title again?

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Fez, would you mind backing up your statements, or are you going for the Bald Assertion Man title again?


Yes.

"Cenda, the think-tank, also calculates the monthly cost of a Basic Goods and Services basket, which includes not just food, but also other basic consumption items like clothes, basic school supplies for kids, rent, medicines, electricity and water bills, the bare-bones basics for a modest but reasonable existence. By Cenda's reckoning, a family of five needs $665 a month to cover this basic basket. And what percentage of Venezuelan households earn $665 or more each month? A mere 6.4%. You read that right. After four years of revolutionary government for the poor, 93.6% of Venezuelans can't afford even the basics - a crushing indictment, if you ask me. "

So what? I was .4% off!

http://www.militaresdemocraticos.co...0030315-02.html

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Ah he's only a kid. He has potential to be a communist one day. The most right wing kids usually turn out that way eventually.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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  Old Post 11-06-2003 10:29 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Ah he's only a kid. He has potential to be a communist one day. The most right wing kids usually turn out that way eventually.


No way... that is impossible... that is like saying a pig would grow wings and fly to mars.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez


No way... that is impossible... that is like saying a pig would grow wings and fly to mars.


The kids who say they could never possibly become one are the ones that do.

 
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