13-06-2003 03:13									#1
	A 3-Way Alliance Against GCA Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

CFC and CDG have proposed to us an alliance that would help to remove a GCA Warrior that is currntly now inside the border's of a CFC city and siting atop Iron in a Mountain.

CDG has stated that they would grants us a ROP for this action.

I have requested that APO be compensated with Tech, Gold, Whatever else if GCA's cities/land's are taken through this combined action, IF we get involved. I did not commit to anything at all, but I did say that GCA's actions should be considered an act of war by CFC. I said I would submit a proposal to the team for consideration and that we would probably be able to send a few units in order to show support for CFC and to show GCA that this type of action is frowned upon.


CDG and CFC also indicated, that if this situation should pass peacefully, that they would like us to be a part of a 4-way NAP.

For more information, please refer to the chat transcript.

	13-06-2003 03:15									#2
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"A Warrior"? "A Mountain"? Did they say where this Mountain is? Maybe it's on the other side of the continent, and they're drawing away our units to that spot.

	13-06-2003 03:20									#3
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The GCA Warrior is on a CFC iron source on CFC's side of the continent (according to CFC).

	13-06-2003 04:41									#4
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Eh, I'm not so hot on the 4 way NAP. While it is beneficial in the peace sense, I don't think it really helps us much as our hands are tied when it comes to dealing with CDG.

Of course, if we were to decide at this point a 4-way NAP is beneficial, then we could change our build queues and REX the hell out of our side of the continent

But regardless, I say to a 4 way NAP.

(I am however, undecided on the attacking GCA option)

	13-06-2003 05:41									#5
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I don't like the idea of 3 way ganging up on GCA. I just don't see what we have to gain. Without taking out CDG first their land isn't worth alot to us. Hurting them only benefits CFC & CDG who border them really. I just don't see how they could compensate us enough to make it worth it even if they both have completly "honorable" intentions towards poly in this. Instead we should count our blessings that CFC & GCA will keep each other occupied, hope that its enough incentive to make CDG want to attack GCA too....and wait for the perfect moment to strike at CDG when they are going at GCA with all they've got.

	13-06-2003 05:53									#6
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I'm with wervdon on this one, for the most part.

It's not worth the cost. Plus if GCA and CFC go at it, great. If CFC and CDG gang on GCA, even better. We sneak in the back door while CDG is away on business.

	13-06-2003 05:59									#7
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I agreed with wervdon. We don't stand to gain from the alliance. 1. GCA cities are too far away, 2. CDG/CFC do not have Techs that we want, 3. only Golds are attractive - but once we move to Republic, we have all the Golds that we need. And i doubt how much we can actualy get.

In addition, we have to be careful. If War broke out and CDG took most of GCA cities through the alliance, CDG will become a huge monster south of Poly. We will be doomed.

My view is :

We should not condone GCA's action. We should send a joint letter (from Poly, CDG, CFC) to GCA asking them to remove their unit. Give them a deadline. If they do not remove, the Alied Forces will remove that unit forcibly.

Note : GCA has not attacked CFC. They are trepassing, like the AIs do in non-PTW games. We should not ATTACK their cities for trepassing. Removing just the trepassed unit should be the right action.

	13-06-2003 06:10									#8
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Of course, if we were to decide at this point a 4-way NAP is beneficial, then we could change our build queues and REX the hell out of our side of the continent

Just wondering, have we make good use of the 2 Graneries Dominae gave us ?

	13-06-2003 06:18									#9
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rush: E_T knows what he's doing, I'm sure the Granaries will be used very well (although the effect will not be noticeable unless you look at the big picture).

Concerning this proposal: let's be very wary about this one. It sounds like a "testing the waters" sort of proposal to me. I see no reason why we should commit to anything at this point. At the very least let them come to us with the "compensation package" (whatever that may be). What do we care that CFC's Iron is covered? That's the question CFC and CDG needs to ask themselves before they come to us. I'm all for good will, but this particular plan could backfire. Again, let's be very wary.


Dominae

	13-06-2003 07:16									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae rush: E_T knows what he's doing, I'm sure the Granaries will be used very well (although the effect will not be noticeable unless you look at the big picture). Concerning this proposal: let's be very wary about this one. It sounds like a "testing the waters" sort of proposal to me. I see no reason why we should commit to anything at this point. At the very least let them come to us with the "compensation package" (whatever that may be). What do we care that CFC's Iron is covered? That's the question CFC and CDG needs to ask themselves before they come to us. I'm all for good will, but this particular plan could backfire. Again, let's be very wary. Dominae

I agree, my initial paranoia when I originally heard the plan was that once we moved our army through CDG's territory, we would be wide open. They could slaughter our army and then come after our "undefended" cities. While I am sure we would plan for such an occasion, I still that it would be a possibility they could take advantage of. Then again, I might be overly paranoid, as they would also be involved in a war with GCA. Hmm.

Regardless, I don't think we should commit to anything.

	13-06-2003 08:06									#11
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Whether this ends up as it looks at face value or not, we should not gang up with anyone to attack GCA. This does not gain us anything as they are simply too far away. I agree we need to cooperate with CDG and CFC as far as words go, send strongly worded letters of condemnation and complaint, threats if it goes that far, but not commit any troops of Polys.

We need to keep up the semblance that we want to help as much as we can, but our troops are just too far away and we don't want to endanger them far from our line of supply. If pressed, we should commit nothing more than gold in place of our troops, and only when we can REALLY afford it. Looking like we are helping out against GCA will help relax CDG, buit we must do everything we can otherwise. At most, we will be the New Zealand of the world - sending observers, maybe a token warrior or two, but that's it, until there is something locla to deal with. Our troops must only get involved in the immediate vicinity of Poly.

This may be a trap - unlikely but possible. We must not let on that we even consider this possibility, which is why we will help in every way that does not draw troops away from our lands beyond a token group.

Personally I don't trust CDG an inch with our troops at stake. With techs and gold I'd be willing to make deals on, but then we don't lose much if they reneg- in fact it could be to our benefit. Our troops we must guard jealously.

In short, what we need to do is agree to an alliance against GCA in terms of joint declarations of removing their warrior, but not join the Coalition of the Willing in any military promises. We must lend all the vocal and maybe gold support possible, but claim the great distance and barb hordes are reasons to keep our soldiers at home. We must be as enthusiastic a supporter as anyone until they want troops, then we have to step back and make our excuses.

	13-06-2003 08:13									#12
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I have to question how vocal we want to be. Do we want to isolate GCA? What about after the tussle?

GCA is the only reliable tech partner right now. CFC has been evasive. CDG does not seem to want to carry through with peaceful treaties.

Who are our friends? Why should we stir ourselves?

The way I see it now, the furthest we should go is giving assurances to CDG that we mean them no harm and that they have our blessings to aid CFC.

	13-06-2003 08:26									#13
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I've given this a lot of thought, and while it's obviously a bad move, we have to be very careful with how we handle it as this point as we've already suggested we could send troops, or suggested we'd be in if we got compensation.

I see very few benefits for Apolyton for doing this other than good will. Good will is important, don't get me wrong, it'll keep us from being the villain, and we DO NOT want to be a villian. However, we gain little and lose our chance to attack CDG as we would certainly be agreeing not to attack other "allies" of such a pact.

But how to stay out of it without losing face or without tipping anyone off that we have ulterior motives?

We have 3 options:

1) Say that we will vocally support CFC in their demands for removal, and stress that if ANY country did that to any other country, we would strongly object. We might even threaten to embargo/not trade with GC. However, our trade agreement was signed in advance and I this new agreement shouldn't void it. We would threaten to cut off future trade ... which is rather weak but at least it's something.

2) Let this thing die by stalling. Don't do anything and, instead, talk to GC. If they move their warrior we don't have to join it but we can pretend that we wanted to and would in the future ... and hope that the future is after we're in kick-CDG-butt mode.

3) Get actively involved, write up the proposals, put in terms that would be objectionable, let them argue about it, and settle for a watered down version of an alliance that was so lame it would be pointless. Settle for one that doesn't commit us to anything. Negotiate benfits for Poly that are very generous and let this idea get lost in red tape as we draft very long and burdensome agreements. If you give me the time, I can come up with quite a bit of nonsense

My preference is for 2, and then 1, then 3.

--Togas

	13-06-2003 11:50									#14
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Togas's point 2 is worth examining. We can be a MEDIATOR between GCA and CFC/CDG. If we are successful in talking to GCA and getting the warrior off CFC Iron, we would be see upon as an important player in future world affairs.

That means CDG would think twice before initiating an attack on Poly with their immortals.

On drafting very long and burdensome agreement, I don't think this is our job. CFC/CDG requested the alliance, let them draft it. We can debate/change/stall on it later on. Don't give the impression to GCA that Poly is the LEADING PARTNER in the alliance. We should be the RELUCTANT PARTNER. We still need GCA to keep control on CDG.

	13-06-2003 12:03									#15
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Well regarding the issue of mediation, we are kind of "unofficially" doing it right now. We sent a letter off to GCA a few minutes ago, hoping it will give them a hint.

Correspondance here

	13-06-2003 12:10									#16
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I'm not sure if I was clear in my earlier post, so I will try to clear it up here.

I would like CFC and GCA to go to war. Furthermore, I would like CDG to back CFC in this action.

In no case would I want us to go to war with anyone besides CDG; and then only on the pre-planned turn.

The reason that I said Apolyton "can" send a few units, is to foster courage in both CFC to attacks GCA and for CDG to join them without fear of reprisal from us. No units of ours should ever reach "the action." We can tell CDG and CFC that we feel that we cannot afford to send troops all the way to CFC once we get the WM from CFC. "Our troops would be much too far away from home at this point in the game."

CDG should see this a a prime opportunity to get some nice land from GCA. Their Immortals now have a target that would be weakened enough for CDG to go after GCA without having to leave too little troops at home for protection. We should do what we can to fodster this idea into CDG's thinking, if they are not already scheming for it themselves.

We need to hem and haw around, using tactics described by Togas above, till the issue settles itself with either a war or a diplomatic solution presents itself. GCA is and will likely be in the future, our best trade partner.

	13-06-2003 12:40									#17
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I agree with those that say we should not really commit to anything worth mentioning. Taking the mediator role is fine. Vocal support is fine. A little bit of threatening is also fine. Our boys going to fight GCA is not. Besides, why would anyone need our TROOPS to get rid of ONE WARRIOR??? Even if he is fortified on a mountain, CFC must be ready to throw 3-4 archers at him, killing him eventually. I see no need to have a swordsman of ours wander half the world to hit just one blow... and sending more than 1 sword to kill a warrior is just plain ridiculous.

	13-06-2003 16:21									#18
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The real question is: which war do we want?

• Do we want a war CDG+CFC vs GCA+Poly?
  
• Do we want a war CDG+CFC vs GCA with Poly as neutral?
  
• Do we want a war CFC vs GCA with CDG and Poly as neutral?
  
• Do we want a war CDG+CFC+Poly vs GCA?
  
• Do we want a war CDG+CFC+Poly vs GCA with us backstabbing CDG half-way through?
  

	13-06-2003 17:39									#19
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Definitely getting actively involved in tis war is a BAD idea. The only somewhat reasonable reason to do so would be to backstb CDG, bu then no one would trust us.

	14-06-2003 02:07									#20
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quote: Spolis of War Apolytopn must give up cities captured to Fanatikou and Elucidia. These cities will not be useful to Apolyton. Elucidia and Fanatikou shall share all cities. However any cities Apolyton turns over with only one ressource or Luxury, must be traded to Apolyton for 30 turns after the turn over of the city. Also, if there are any cities that are captured with two luxuries, the second must go to Apolyton for 30 turns. If there are three luxuries, one must go to Apolyton for 30 turns, and the third must either go to Elucidia or Fanatikou for 30 turns.

*ROFL* They *are* joking right? They want us to go to war with our best trading partner to help them out, and then give the cities we capture to them. Yeah.....right.

	14-06-2003 02:15									#21
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hi ,

just one Q , whats the catch , .....

have a nice day

	14-06-2003 02:19									#22
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the catch is that we give them all the cities we capture

	14-06-2003 02:35									#23
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I just got done reading the log of the convo with lucky + the proposal for the alliance. Honestly, I think GCA is damned if they do and damned if they dont. I'm of the opinion that they will be attacked both CDG & CFC regardless at this point and the two already plan to split their land. There's not much we can do but wait and see, but we need to plan for it.

In the end I highly suspect this continent will end up Poly vs CFC though as we take out CDG and the CDG/CFC alliance weakens GCA enough for CFC to finish them off (if not totally then enough that they are a very minor player) even after we take CDG out of the equation. The only unknown is how well developed CFC is which we won't know till we get a good map.

EDIT: Oh and I'll be the first to admit that I could be wrong, this is just a gut feeling/speculation based solely on the tones of the conversations in the logs + our experiences with CDG up until this point.

	14-06-2003 06:06									#24
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I dont like this...One, us attacking CGA don't gain us much. WE can't do much with that it would be to corrupt. Most likely this is just CDG trying to get CGA wiped out and looking for a sucker to help them.

	14-06-2003 08:04									#25
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Let's refer back to our original global plan and examine how this benefits us in concrete terms:

What cities, units, industrial capacity, or anything else do we gain from this? It would appear the answer is none.

What cities, units, industrial capacity or anything else can we lose from this? It would appear that we could lose units.

We are therefore risking concrete assets (and guarenteed loss of any gains we may make according to their spoils of war) in order to gain abstract benefits- the friendly smile of CFC (our eventual rival for the continent and perhaps the game) and CDG (who we plan to take out as quickly as possible for our own gains.)

However, there is another possibility and point here- we must now consider whether or not CFC would aid CDG were we to attack them... and whether or not our forces are being drawn in a specific direction so that a CFC/CDG alliance can swoop in on US, NOW. We have absolutely NO concrete proof of anything at this point. Remember that the other teams know precious little about our land and what we have, and they surely must be very suspicious of our low score; they may have deduced that we are planning a granary-curve of growth - one that starts low and skyrockets.

However, in the Machiavellian sense we surely know that only one will survive, and this might lend us an excellent chance to smash CDG. I would propose that we appear to go along with this agreement, and attempt to coordinate battle plans - coordinate them such that our attack on CDG would logically occur right when they were committing assets southward the most- and right when we were ready to deal the hammer blow to CDG anyhow.

Short version: Let's appear to go along with things, and merely use any information we gain to further our own plans to wipe CDG out.....

and let's keep an eye on developments to our west. CFC isn't a bunch of fools- they know who to worry about around here.

This war does us no good; let the other three weaken each other, and continue preparations to smash CDG on time. It could be this is all a ruse to see how quickly 'poly can field a force if needed.

	14-06-2003 08:07									#26
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit the catch is that we give them all the cities we capture

hi ,

believe what you want , this stinks big time , ......

the main Q is , and it seems some others are also wondering , where is the catch , what's in it for us , what are the risks , what are the benefits , what do we loose , what do they get / loose / risk etc , .......

ones all of that is clear we can decide , and not a second before (!)

have a nice day

	14-06-2003 10:58									#27
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , believe what you want , this stinks big time , ...... the main Q is , and it seems some others are also wondering , where is the catch , what's in it for us , what are the risks , what are the benefits , what do we loose , what do they get / loose / risk etc , ....... ones all of that is clear we can decide , and not a second before (!) have a nice day

Err. Panag my friend, I'm not believing what I want. I'm stating the treaty.

To put it in simple turns:

CFC and CDG want us to help eradicate GCA. What is the catch we all ask? The catch is that any sort of military gains we make, we will be required to give away.

Now, what does WB believe in regards to this? I believe this treaty is utter and complete crap, and CFC should shove it back up their ass. :P

I agree that the question we are all asking *is* what do we gain from this. I agree with you. The answer, as most of us are concluding, is that we gain absolutely nothing.

Let's throw the crumbled up treaty back at CFC. Thanks.

	14-06-2003 11:17									#28
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Now that we have a blunt opinion, perhaps we can proceed to package that in diplomatically acceptable terms and mail it back to CFC and CDG.

btw, I agree with you WhiteBandit. I sometimes scratch my head at where ideas like this come from.

	14-06-2003 14:18									#29
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Seems to me that there is one simple guide logic when one contemplate treaties - no gain no agreement. On the other hand, the proposed alliance means investment - in units. However, given our future relations with CFC, we should come up with a nice excuse.

	14-06-2003 17:27									#30
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I think we might send the reply back in some terms stating our "Deep and abiding belief that proper compensation for our actions would be exceedingly difficult to define and acquire," and further that we have "some degree of concern as to the regards of our fellows for our intellect in proposing this agreement in its current standard."


Or we could go with Hannibal/Carthage's reply when you REALLY tweak him for a LONG time and then propose a truly poor treaty, roughly paraphrased:

"Don't pee on my shoulder and tell me it's raining gold, CFC!"