14-06-2003 15:24									#31
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Human rights came later, true human rights came after the American revolution and George Washington. The French threw up a corrupt corsican tyrant emporor. The French declared the republican revolution and set up devices to remove heads.

The French blew it, the Americans lived it and the world followed our example.

Here is the KEY. In all I've said, listen to this one thing. It is the average Joe we have had going for us, and the Brits before us. The guy that through faith and the learning of generations refused to be diverted. The last few at the Valley Forge wouldn't have been there anywhere else. They HAD to stay. Without them Washington would have swung. Also God, who led the French to one of their only victories over the British navy in history. That in itself is a miracle if you know the history. These are the foundations of the freedom you enjoy, not Napoleon's generalship and conquests.

It's the men who overcome technical obsticles. The men who decend for those whose life was lived partly upon the sea. Such men don't walk away, theirs are the hands that built the machines and the supreme civilization in which we live.

	14-06-2003 15:26									#32
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nah, the basics of today's human rights is clearly french thinkers' texts. america didnt have much influence in europe's thinking (still dont)

	14-06-2003 15:27									#33
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although it was good the US followed them. as did europe eventually.

	14-06-2003 15:29									#34
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I'm sorry that your anti American bias won't let you see the history pal.

	14-06-2003 15:30									#35
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BTW america is perceived as a rogue state and it wasnt popular even in ww2 since it started fighting communism using the same means as communism (repression, manipulation, etc)
this isnt living up to any ideals and i doubt it ever was.

noone looks at america and says: "hey look they lived up to anything"


im just saying it like it is perceived not necessairily as it is.

	14-06-2003 15:31									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer I'm sorry that your anti American bias won't let you see the history pal.

i'm sorry that your nationalism doesnt let you see how things are too

	14-06-2003 15:36									#37
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"im just saying it like it is perceived not necessairily as it is."

Remember, communism came from nothing to subjecting 3/5ths of the world's population in roughly 50 years. What stopped it? The United States, doing whatever it took. In hindsight prettyboys can say it wasn't pretty, but in fact pretty wasn't going to get the job done, and niether were the prettyboys either. Americans led the effort, and the line was drawn in the blood of free men the world over, who wouldn't be moved from it.

	14-06-2003 15:36									#38
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see u talk about the freedom i enjoy. this freeddom has nothing to do with britain kickin' french ass in some naval exercise nor has it anything to do with washington.

it has to do with a genuine social necessity of that time that was transported to rebelion, the very fierce fighting of greeks the assistance of foreign powers due to their strategic interests and thats where the story ends.
after that its simply interests, borin old interests who sometines went against greece freedom sometimes in favor.

	14-06-2003 15:37									#39
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Competition is the foremost factor. It forced the countries to concentrate on accumulating knowledge in science and technology. Of course, all this would have to take place after the Renaissance, which laid the foundation of scientific endeavours.

	14-06-2003 15:38									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer "im just saying it like it is perceived not necessairily as it is." Remember, communism came from nothing to subjecting 3/5ths of the world's population in roughly 50 years. What stopped it? The United States, doing whatever it took. In hindsight prettyboys can say it wasn't pretty, but in fact pretty wasn't going to get the job done, and niether were the prettyboys either. Americans led the effort, and the line was drawn in the blood of free men the world over, who wouldn't be moved from it.

thats why i say communism was the same as capitalism to the respective countries which were satelites.

what a country decides, it will do. both communists and capitalists should have fook off. they didnt, they arent liked. simple.

	14-06-2003 15:40									#41
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if the US was supposed to protect freedom then why did it help abolish it in some countries?

that bull. the US was only promoting its interests and protecting its interests. at least communism did damage primerily to its own country...

	14-06-2003 15:41									#42
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paiktis, the reason why Greece isn't now under the boot of the politboro has almost nothing to do with Greece.

Pride blinds you to the glaringly obvious truth.

	14-06-2003 15:42									#43
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unfortunately this is so.

but this was to be decided by the people of said country. not by communists or capitalists. since capitalists didnt mind fook up the country as long as the NATO bases remained in the west, then really fook them

	14-06-2003 15:43									#44
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ok that was unfair, there was considerable aid

	14-06-2003 15:45									#45
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and there was aid going to the communists too from yugoslavia.

but SPECIFIC incidents are damning for the US such as is the 1967 dictatorship. very very suspect period.

	14-06-2003 15:46									#46
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You will never have to try to remove your family to freedom while under fire from communist bordeguards, who were chosen for their sadistic history.

That's kinda nice, believe me, I know.

	14-06-2003 15:47									#47
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the point is that this has nothing to do with freedom. it was pure interests which sometimes destroyed the freedom they said they protected.

noone believes that cause its just aint true.

	14-06-2003 15:48									#48
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Sure, damning. Yet we won the cold war. If it was me I'd have brooked no deals with the devil, but still we won.

	14-06-2003 15:48									#49
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and believe you me lancer, you never saw a friend tortured to death by a dictatorship the US wholly supported.


i havent but others have.

	14-06-2003 15:49									#50
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I suppose a cynic could look upon freedom as a self interest.

	14-06-2003 15:51									#51
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maybe, but a blinded man would definitely see itnerests as freedom

the point is, you were fighting for your country's survival. not for anyone else's freedom. you were only to happy to screw and destroy the freedom of other countries if that meant serving your national interests.


tell me why are you better than communists?

you arent. you're worse, to the satelite countries you had under your boot!

(of course the indigenous commies should have been more smart too)

	14-06-2003 15:52									#52
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I believe that winning made all other things secondary to those who fought the fight. We supported dictatorships that were both cruel and not enemies, because we had all the enemies we could handle. At least that's what I believe led to the situation you describe paiktis. Like I said, I'd have no deal w/ the devil, but I wasn't in charge,

We won though, you are free.

	14-06-2003 15:57									#53
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things are not so simple. you cant say you have won when you have been destroying what you say you were fighting for.

as far as such countries like mine are concerned you and the commies have been defeated. because you have. the dictatorship was made to stop the socialists from getting to power. they did get to power however after toppling the dictatorship and with the motto greece for the greeks. why would such a motto be necessairy if that was the case already?

so we had to choose between dictatorship and the commies? thats not so much of a choice nor does it make one better than theother (although even communism was better than dictatorship like in yugoslavia for example)

	14-06-2003 16:03									#54
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I believe we can both agree that we have made good use of the free exchange of ideas tonight that would be impossible under soviet communism, paiktis. I've enjoyed this discussion. I've enjoyed our freedom to wage this debate.

You are a stubborn cuss pal, the best sort of people.

	14-06-2003 16:03									#55
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not thatthere are not huge responsibilities to the greek fascists mind you, but you supported them after they got to power and that is unforgivable and took away any moral justification you could ever have IMHO.

	14-06-2003 16:04									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer I believe we can both agree that we have made good use of the free exchange of ideas tonight that would be impossible under soviet communism, paiktis. I've enjoyed this discussion. I've enjoyed our freedom to wage this debate. You are a stubborn cuss pal, the best sort of people.

nor could we have it during the dictatorship, you defender of freedom my ass .

	14-06-2003 16:08									#57
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Correction, I never claimed they were our defender of freedom. I just said they were not our enemy. Our enemy was communism. I basicly said that's all the enemy we could handle, maybe more than we could handle, which if you saw our weapons in '77 you might better understand.

	14-06-2003 16:10									#58
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The philosophy of 'the enemy of our enemy is our friend' made for some strange bedfellows, to be sure. Thankfully that's history.

	14-06-2003 16:12									#59
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...unless of course it's YOUR history, which it obviously is.

Goodnight paiktis.

	14-06-2003 16:15									#60
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Your friend was the same if not worse than your enemy, mein freud that's what I'm talking about.