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Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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The industrial revolution centered on the north sea, and spred in ever decreasing circles from there.
England, Holland, and Scandinavia experienced the first of it. The industrial revolution can best be defined in its early stages by the amount of railroad track per capita, or square mile or something. I've a book on the spread of this all important revolution somewhere, I'll hunt it up tommorrow if I have time. It has figures on RR capacity.
Civ spreads sci in a manner that isn't realistic in the least. For instance, potery was never a guarded secret, niether was most early sci. If you see a wheel you can wrap your mind around it. Sci spreads, rapidly. Technical capicity...happens very slowly.
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Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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Rough seas actually.
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Bereta_Eder
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I thinkk it was simply the competition. Too many people in a pathetic small peninsula of the eurasian continent fighting eachother all the time for land/resources/influence.
Staying alive can motivate pretty revolutionary things.
it's not always through war, sometimes it's competition pure and simple between countries for prestige/influence etc.
And contrary to what some may believe the echange of ideas wal always very easy in Europe between different city-states, kingdoms, states.
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Bereta_Eder
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The turning point for what we are seeing today was definitely the industrial revolution but also the french revolution as well as the development of socialistic values.
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Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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Rough seas. The technical acumen required to overcome the local ocean conditions developed the technical capacity of the people. For hundreds of years the europeans struggled to overcome the seas, and by doing so learned to overcome. While other peoples lived with their surroundings, europeans learned to shape them. In doing so they became the first technical people, and this is how so few people spread colonialism through the world, defeating all comers. It wasn't natural for the people of India to form a line and spew bullets like a machine while suffering under and overcoming enemy fire. This is how the Brits and other euros came to consider themselves superior, they had in hundreds of years developed foundation based in technical matters that it would take hundreds of years for other peoples to assimilate into their make up. You could give these peoples the sci, but they could never use it like they can in Civ. You could fire guns at american indians, and they will learn to fire them, but not to build them. That's technical. Though they had themselves developed many skills, they lived their lives without the technical challenges of communication by sea.
It's no accident that the Brits controled the sea. They were more challenged by it. To them it just made sense to turn their ships of the line into fast firing artillery platforms while the French and particularly Spanish focused more on bringing lots of extra men and boarding. The solution came first to the Brits because it had to. Same with all big gun dreadnaughts. Seperated by a couple of hundred years but in each case the Brits got there first. No accident, but a technical imperative.
You could show such developments to other europeans and they could follow suit. You could show it Snoopy to your aborigines and they would worship it. The foundation of technical understanding is lacking.
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Bereta_Eder
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Spanish were there long before the Brits even knew what was happening.
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Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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To early ships capable of exploration, not to the industrial revolution. The Brits took the greater numbers of Spanish apart with their ships/ artilery platforms, assisted in the case of the armada by the weather and superior tactics. The Spanish with their larger crews got blown to bits.
Francis Drake, remember?
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Bereta_Eder
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Yes the industrial revolution was very imprtant I said so myself. But it was quickly passed on to other countries.
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Bereta_Eder
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Greek philosophers were forgotten at the middle ages by all apart from the Byzantines (who regarded them as peagans) and the Arabs. The revival of ancient writing in 18th and 19th century was done by the brits the french the italians hell even the russians and the germans caught up on it.
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Bereta_Eder
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I think a corner stone was french moral ethics the lay out of fundamental human rights.
brit contribution apart from the industrial revolution was mainly in the field of economy. not so much in philosophy/thinking/ breaking new ground.
and of course a turning point was also the october revolution. not in itself but the aftermath and what it injected to the social conscience.
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Bereta_Eder
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Lancer you're too caught up about britain (being american/canadian/assorted species) and it is my duty to open your eyes.
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Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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Nary not so my leftist Greek friend. I'm not caught up about Britain. I don't feel much afinity to technical people actually. I seek the comfortable riot of a friendly poor homey untechnical culture.
Screw being a machine, though so many take such pride in it. I have the southern european take on work. Sothern euros work to live, northern euros live to work.
Something very wrong w/ the latter.
No, regarging history I'm impressed with artillery. Arty did more to form the history of nations than a thousand fluffy philosiphers spouting high sounding horsepoop.
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Bereta_Eder
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germans would like me and others to forget it. actually it is the past.
one country managed to bring a whole world against her, cant do that without good technology.
if england and germany were alone face to face, the UK would be speaking german now loud and clear. so much for its technological "advantage".
the arms technology no matter how essential is not the main driving force of history.
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Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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The Germans remind me of my brother. He has a fairly advanced math brain. Figure out all sorts of stuff. Yet he has no sense, and hasn't the sense to listen to someone who does. Thats how the Germans ended up at war with overwhelming power. Don't give this to them as an atribute. They had beaten continental powers remember. They were at war with only Great Britian. Exactly the circumstance you put forward. Yet they had no sense. They could put a missile on London, a jet in the air, but not a warm coat on the guys it all rode on, get it? Germans are really smart, but stupid as they come.
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Bereta_Eder
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the foundations for the nation were made because of the french revoluytion. the present code of respect for human rights also comes from france.
i think those two are important.
britain did miracles to the economic thinking, but it was a different school from the europeans. which is better is a matter of opinion.
buthuman rights and countries as we know them have become the most important aspect of europe today, even though the latter is fading away just as city-states faded away to kingoms and they faded away to nations and nations will fade away to supranational entities as is the EU.
Actually the EU is the first "country" of the next millenia!
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Bereta_Eder
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quote:
Originally posted by Lancer
The Germans remind me of my brother. He has a fairly advanced math brain. Figure out all sorts of stuff. Yet he has no sense, and hasn't the sense to listen to someone who does. Thats how the Germans ended up at way with overwhelming power. Don't give this to them as an atribute. They had beaten continental powers remember. They were at war with only Great Britian. Exactly the circumstance you put forward. Yet they had no sense. They could put a missile on London, a jet in the air, but not a warm coat on the guys it all rode on, get it? Germans are really smart, but stupid as they come. |
well only really stupid people would come up with an arian nazi racist ideology anyway. i dont disagree with what you say, one can be a "genious" and real stupid at the same time. europe acted in cooperation against them, thus proving smarter.
as for italy, dont ask, 2 world wars, 2 times on the wrong side 
but renescane was grand even though it got a starting kick from the fleeting byzantines from constantinople.
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Bereta_Eder
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anyway this is just a parenthesis in the grand scheme of european things, even thoughits pretty recent.
but one step back two forward, look at france and germany now! best of friends. hell if they can do it, greece and turkey can do it too. and others as well. this is how the world goes forward.
and were it not for the disastrous ww2 EU would never havebeen formed.
even though i suspect such a war was inevitable anyway unless an EU was formed which could not unless such a war happened.
sometimes you just have to think if there isnt a social engineering experiment going on and that if you look closley to its ingedients and dynamics you could be able to tell the future.
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14-06-2003 13:31
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