17-06-2003 22:20									#181
	Put an end to popups!

Hopelessly misinformed...

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Hardly. Durign the period between 500-1500AD, the European economies most certainly did not grow strongly

Yeah, the population just tripled in the time. Its degree of urbanization increased massively, its agricultural productivity, industry and trade grew massively.

Cases in point:

- France's population around 500 was 4-5 million; the relatively good figures of the fireplace count of 1328 point to a population of about 20 million.
- Paris was a town of some thousand in 500, it was a city of 100.000-200.000 around 1300. I can give you some estimates for other cities.
- the seed/harvest ratio for grains was 1:2-1:3 for the early middle ages. It was 1:5-1:7 around 1500.
- mining had virtually disappeared by 500 AD. It was an important industry around 1500. Look to Spain or the alps, or mining boom towns like Joachimsthal. Estimate for people living from tyrolian mining around 1520: 50.000.
- trade around 500 was very limited. Around 1300 or 1500, look at the italian cities or the Hanse.

"and most certainly did not achieve the standard of living of the Roman Empire."

Most certainly it did, especially north of the alps. But what would you know about the shortcomings of roman agriculture in particular.

"Institutions did not change radically enough to produce the development necessary to lift Europe out of its chaos."

Explain what you mean.

"You also omit the massive population growths that occurred during the Ming and then the Ching dynasties."

That's a bit off limit timewise, apart from the earlier Ming. So how does it compare 500-1500? Trough to peak range, 50-120 million according to the guesstimates. For Europe, 20-80 million.

"You'll have to do a lot better if you want to argue that European civilization was on par with Chinese civilization between 500AD and 1500 AD."


First, my point is that europe developped rapidly between 500 and 1500. It was roughly at par with China late in that period, ie 1200/1500.

As for argueing, you trod out some lame ass stereotypes that are found in bad schoolbooks. Your simple claim that europe stagnated between 500 and 1500 is so stupid, it's hardly worth bothering with. Check out some facts. I haven't even started yet.

	17-06-2003 22:31									#182
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

"Institutions did not change radically enough to produce the development necessary to lift Europe out of its chaos."

Notwithstanding the Roman Catholic Church and the crowns of Europe, of course.

	17-06-2003 22:54									#183
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by DaShi Sigh, laymen. This is far more complex. Religious thought isn't as simple as you make it out to be. That's why you can't understand it. None of these people developed their theories to oppose the Church. It was the way of thinking that the Church and, more specifically, religious philosophers helped propagate that contributed to the conclusions of Copernicus, Bruno, Galileo, and Darwin. Darwin, for example, was a devote Christians and was quite upset when his theories made the religious communities feel threatened. In Galileo's case, the Church actually believed him, but didn't feel that such information should be made public yet because they feared the reaction of the ignorant populace. In short, Judeo-Christian thought led to all these theories, but the result of these theories may not have been what the religious institutions intended.

I don't agree with UR's assesment but I do wonder how you can be certain that Europeans didn't adopt Christianity because it suited their life-style and values. Was it a mere coincidence that confucianism or something similar didn't took root in Europe or was it because it wasn't practical?

	18-06-2003 18:22									#184
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I don't believe that the majority of people choose their religion because it fits their lifestyle. Rather they are compelled to believe in a certain faith by outside forces (ie. family, society, those Spanish guys with axes). Most people adjust their lifestyle around their religion. Once religion have become ingrained in a culture or society, it become part of people thought processes. Confucianism and other Far Eastern philosophies didn't have such an impact because they couldn't get across the Judeo-Christian-Islam barrier that separated Europe from the East religiously. Most people never heard of such things. If they did, their own religion taught them that such ideas were heresy and worthy of a visit by Spanish guys with axes.