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Urban Ranger
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Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic
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quote:
Originally posted by Colon
Obviously it wasn't a driving force for the Chinese to explore beyond the coast of Africa. As I already said, the primary reason for the Chinese to set up expeditions was to demonstrate their power and there wasn't any compelling reason to continue with it once the emperor's attention shifted elsewhere. |
To whom? Granted, there were some European observers on Cheng Ho's fleet, but neighbouring countries wouldn't know about the voyages, right? A demonstration of might with no audience is completely worthless. Hence, that cannot be it.
quote:
Originally posted by Colon
The Chinese elite was very suspicious of traders and their activities and they weren't shy of banning their business and grabbing their property. |
Not true. Businesses weren't encouraged per se, but they weren't frowned upon, either. A lot of foreign trading had began as early as the Han dynasty through the Silk Road, that's when forts were established to guard against barbarian raiders, mainly the Huns.
quote:
Originally posted by Colon
The fact that maritime trade by Chinese was outlawed is telling IMO. |
What? When?
quote:
Originally posted by Colon
PS: think of Marco Polo. Why did an European made use of trade routes opened up by the Mongols to explore the east, while a Chinese didn't do anything similar to explore the west? |
That seems to be two different things. Europeans were interested in Asian cultures and such, don't forget Marco Polo spent 13 years in the courts of Kublai Khan. The Chinese weren't exactly interested in European cultures in the same degree that Marco Polo did. However, that doesn't mean that Chinese dynasties weren't interesed in the money businesses could generate.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
" I think it is significant that the majority of the early explorers, who initiated Europe's long sea-borne invasion of the world, were citizens of the mediterranean,"
Actually, the early explorers were Portugese, which is not, last time I looked, a Med. country. |
Technically, you're right, but the Portugese were players in the mediterranean trade route competition along with Venice and Genoa, and so from a commercial point of view Portugal was a mediterranean country.
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Dr Strangelove
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I think that the reason that China failed to expand is the inward looking perfectionism of the Confuscian philosophical system that dominated Chinese society. You might also take into account that after 1200 AD China was ruled by successive waves of foreigners. Each of these dynasties required some time to make China theri home, and military dictatorships also twend to squash innovation. Wasn't there a period during which the imperial government actually went about book burning en mass?
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HershOstropoler
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
Hersh -
Not the Europeans, but thanks for adding to the crappola. |
Those large 8m cannons the Ottomans used in 1453 in the siege of Constantinoples were designed and built by a hungarian gunsmith in the service of the Sultan. IIRC he was carrying the good muslim name of Urban.
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HershOstropoler
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
What plague? There wasn't any plague in China. Famines, sure, and lots of people got killed by Mongol hordes, sure, but no plagues. |
ehm... right, it just originated there, most likely.
A little googling:
"The great pandemic of plague, known in Europe as the Black Death, is thought to have begun in China in the early 1330s. Reliable chronicles tell of an outbreak of the plague in China, beginning in 1331. Sources in Latin, Arabic, and Chinese tell of numerous natural disasters such as floods and earthquakes. These events might have destroyed the habitats of the plague-bearing rodents, forcing them into contact with other rodent populations and thus spreading their fleas (11). By the 1350s, two-thirds of China's population lay dead (12)."
http://www.american.edu/projects/ma...TED/BUBONIC.HTM
The 2/3rds estimate is likely exaggerated, but so are most estimates for Europe. We have accounts in regional history of 4000 dead in a city that had no more than 2000 people, for example. But with the plague breaking out of central asia, why should china be spared? And it was part of the factors weakening Yuan rule.
"In China the outbreaks of the plague caused massive death rates and economic chaos, and contributed to the collapse of the Mongol (Yuan) Dynasty 14 years later."
http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/s...Battuta/Battuta's_Trip_Ten.html
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HershOstropoler
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UUUURBAAAAAN!!!!
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HershOstropoler
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Look, there were like 8 popes by the name of Urban! How much more obvious can irony get?
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:28
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Ah, I don't keep up on the names of popes, but "Urban" does sound quite familiar.
quote:
In 1452 Mohammed II completed his preparations unhindered. He laid much trust in the ability of modern artillery and employed a Hungarian gunfounder, called Urban, to cast him a siege artillery of seventy guns. Another major part of Mohammed II's preparations was to contruct a fortress at the narrowest point of the Bosporus, called Rumeli Hisari, with which he could blockade the sea-straight. |
According to a Muslim historian, Mohammed designed the guns (for what that's worth) and had them cast. But "Urban" may have been the guy's name before conversion. If he was a Christian, why was he helping Muslims conquer a Christian city?
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HershOstropoler
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Mohammed had the idea to use very big siege guns, and building them was a technical challange. As for "why was he helping Muslims conquer a Christian city", quite simple: he had been unemployed.
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I concur with Colon on this. Since the Renaissance Judeo-Christianity was the main resistance to scientific development. Copernicus didn't dare to publish his theory until he's on his deathbed. The Inquisition burned Bruno at stake and forced Galileo to recant. Darwin wasn't even a Christian, and IIRC Newton didn't do his work for Jesus. |
hi ,
wake up , we allready had a culture with math , they just took our numbers , stein , shalosh , arba , etc , .... we allready could calculate a calender based on the moon and sun 3500 years before 632 , ..... 
so , to say that we where in the way of science , ..... till this very day the Israeli people and jews are among some of the best scientists of the world , ....
who do you think invented e=mc2 , ...
have a nice day
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Colon
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Antwerp, Colon's Chocolate Canard Country
Jan 1970
time: 06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
To whom? Granted, there were some European observers on Cheng Ho's fleet, but neighbouring countries wouldn't know about the voyages, right? A demonstration of might with no audience is completely worthless. Hence, that cannot be it. |
The peoples living on the shores of Indian Ocean and the South China Sea make up quite a large audience I’d say. At one occasion they even captured a Ceylonese king and took him to China because he failed to acknowledge the supremacy of the emperor.
I don’t deny that trade took place during the expeditions but no durable maritime trade links were established. It was rendered impossible anyway as an imperial edict banned the construction of sea vessels 3 years after the last expedition took place. (in 1433) Whatever maritime trade happened afterwards was conducted by foreigners like the Portuguese and strictly regulated by the state. (although smuggling was widespread – but risking your life to sell goods isn’t exactly an optimal way to do business)
quote:
Not true. Businesses weren't encouraged per se, but they weren't frowned upon, either. A lot of foreign trading had began as early as the Han dynasty through the Silk Road, that's when forts were established to guard against barbarian raiders, mainly the Huns. |
Foreign trade was conducted by foreigners, not Chinese. Chinese weren’t even allowed to travel abroad because of an imperial edict issued in 1371.
quote:
That seems to be two different things. Europeans were interested in Asian cultures and such, don't forget Marco Polo spent 13 years in the courts of Kublai Khan. The Chinese weren't exactly interested in European cultures in the same degree that Marco Polo did. However, that doesn't mean that Chinese dynasties weren't interested in the money businesses could generate. |
True the Chinese (or more specifically, the bureaucrat elite) weren’t interested in other cultures or only in so far they came to pay tribute to the glory of the emperor.
And sure, the Ming emperors were interested in money, but taxation and extortion were the preferable means of getting it.
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DaShi
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The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I concur with Colon on this. Since the Renaissance Judeo-Christianity was the main resistance to scientific development. Copernicus didn't dare to publish his theory until he's on his deathbed. The Inquisition burned Bruno at stake and forced Galileo to recant. Darwin wasn't even a Christian, and IIRC Newton didn't do his work for Jesus. |
Sigh, laymen. 
This is far more complex. Religious thought isn't as simple as you make it out to be. That's why you can't understand it. None of these people developed their theories to oppose the Church. It was the way of thinking that the Church and, more specifically, religious philosophers helped propagate that contributed to the conclusions of Copernicus, Bruno, Galileo, and Darwin. Darwin, for example, was a devote Christians and was quite upset when his theories made the religious communities feel threatened. In Galileo's case, the Church actually believed him, but didn't feel that such information should be made public yet because they feared the reaction of the ignorant populace. In short, Judeo-Christian thought led to all these theories, but the result of these theories may not have been what the religious institutions intended.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:28
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quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Stagnate, with its population tripling, its institutions changing radically in all areas, its economy growing strongly?
Rubbish.
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Hardly. Durign the period between 500-1500AD, the European economies most certainly did not grow strongly and most certainly did not achieve the standard of living of the Roman Empire.
Institutions did not change radically enough to produce the development necessary to lift Europe out of its chaos.
What we do see is isolated cases of economic development coinciding with constant warfare.
[QUOTE] Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Yeah, that's why its population fell in half from the end of the Song to the early Ming dynasty. The plague was as devastating in China as it was in Europe. Population density under the late Song wasn't higher than in most of western europe, if you can trust the estimates.
[/QUOTE[
Whether half the population died off, or a quarter, or a third is irrelevant.
You cite the end of the Song to the beginning of the Ming dynasty, a period of about 100 years. During that time there was relatively short periods of chaos, but it was short-lived compared to the chaos that exist in Europe for centuries.
You also omit the massive population growths that occurred during the Ming and then the Ching dynasties.
You'll have to do a lot better if you want to argue that European civilization was on par with Chinese civilization between 500AD and 1500 AD.
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17-06-2003 08:35
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