17-06-2003 04:01									#1
	CFC-GCA war official as of now Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

A sad turn of events happened today, which have lead to GCA attacking the CFC city of Fun Yeung.

Basically we had set up a CFC-GCA-Poly chat, In which we mediated the whole dispute. It went well at first, in fact there were some moments in which it seemed we were getting close to getting an agreement done. Alas, it all went to hell after a childish fit of rage by CFC's Goonie which got pissed off and left the chat, leaving everything on the table and thus, inviting GCA to legaly be able to attack them without any breach of treaty.

Both sides showed incredible stubborness and an unwillingness to compromise although GCA's stubbornness was totally and utterly surpassed by CFC. Sad, being such a big site, I don't understand why they let kids handle conversations with adults... (ha, I only say that cuz I'm 24 now )

Anyway, I will post the HUGE chat log in the Correspondence thread in a while. I will also later post some of the most notable moments of the chat, and my personal impressions on why it failed.

For the record though, I think our team did splendid, we showed a maturity that neither of the other sides had, and I am confident that we did all we could to avert this disaster. We gave peace a chance, but peace was just too dumb to take it

My sincere praise to all the Apolytoners who showed up and participated.

-MZ

	17-06-2003 04:03									#2
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Disclaimer:

My avatar seems to indicate that I am in some way happy that this whole war is going on. I am not!. I would have much rather wanted it in 30-40 turns from now...

EDIT: that would be my last dancing banana avatar...

Last edited by Master Zen on 18-06-2003 at 11:19

	17-06-2003 04:04									#3
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Nice work anyway MZ. Your work is invaluable.

	17-06-2003 04:15									#4
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Could we suggest, subtly of course, that Goonie is a disaster for CFC?

That horid deal he kept trying to push on us. If I wasn't picturing the big kid from Goonie's, I would most likely have been insulted. As it is, it only confirmed my opinion that he is a fool.

Really, is it in our interests that negotiations and trades depend on communicating with this guy?

	17-06-2003 04:18									#5
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I am happy that they're at war: it makes things interesting and puts us ahead. I'm still not sure why our official diplomatic stance was as peacekeepers (or, "warpreventers").

I was not at the chat: any chance this is all a big set-up in attempts to get either CDG or us into a vulnerable position (i.e. could they have faked the whole thing)?


Dominae

	17-06-2003 04:30									#6
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Dominae, I was there at the end and it's not a put up. It's unfortunate that CFC is having to face Swords with Warriors and spearmen... But from what I had seen, both parties were acting like little children, fighting over a sandbox while the snakes (CDG) was approching.

E_T

	17-06-2003 04:57									#7
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Chat log has been posted as a link to the text version since it is very very long. You may download it here too: http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Ma...CFC-GCA-ACS.txt

Anyway, E_T pretty much summed it up, both sides acted like asses (CFC much more so) and in the end, if they get their butt kicked they'd have well deserved it. I will now skim through the log and post the most important parts...

	17-06-2003 05:01									#8
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Chat summary


- In the morning I chatted via ICQ with Lucky to try and get him to soften his demands (chat posted here)

- Lucky assured me that war would be avoided if CFC acceded to their demands. Tried to press upon him a more relaxed set of demands, tied in with a moderated multi-site chat and a 3-turn NAP which I eventualy relaxed into a 1 turn NAP. Lucky said his team would consider it but no 100% guarantee.

- WB caught some of the CFC people in their chatroom and brought them over here. We began explaining the situation to them when Lucky came back online at ICQ and I asked him to join. Soon, others from GCA joined.

- GCA brought out their demands, and it begane to be discussed. CFC also brought in some demands of their own, after a few minutes (hours) of getting nowhere, I got tired of their BS and said a couple of things to both their teams in the hope of getting to see thins more rationally and withouth flimsy excuses. That part is here and after that, it was the closest we ever came to getting a deal done.

- CFC suddenly got stubborn all of a sudden and began making demands of their own. Of course, GCA refused to consider this until their own demands were met. WhiteBandit and myself were basically pushing for the following: for GCA to leave the city alone, and CFC to not connect the iron and remove its units as well as settling a border as the original demands required.

- After more hasstle and idiotic comments by both sides, it all came down to the issue of the border. CFC refused to discuss the border and Goonie left the chat in a fit of rage. GCA had no option than to scrwe it all and attack the city. That final part is here

- A massive trash talking and trout slapping marathon ensued (not included in the chat log)

-MZ

Last edited by Master Zen on 17-06-2003 at 08:04

	17-06-2003 08:12									#9
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Updated the Correspondence Thread with the most important parts of the chat divided into 7 parts (yes it was that long)


I would also like to make a note that GCA seemed bent on war ever since the mroning chat with lucky, and I frankly suspected this since a few days before. It was obvious they tried to pull unreasonable demands against CFC so they wouldn't accept. However, after hearing their side of the story in more detail, I was actually surprised at how bold, CFC's move actually was, and in the end I'm inclined to say that despite both teams being incredibly stubborn, the moral edge belongs slightly to GCA.

Factors I think influenced this:

- CFC's initial treatment of GCA which was most likely as insulting as they told us.

- GCA believing this was the best chance they weould ever get at knocking CFC out of the picture. This was confirmed in the morning chat:

quote: Lucky (11:48 AM) : well, confidentially to you only Lucky (11:48 AM) : we think this is our only chance right now, we wonŽt get one again Lucky (11:48 AM) : and it is by far not a really good chance Master Zen (11:49 AM) : I understand, but its a very risky thing to take the plunge like that Lucky (11:49 AM) : yes, we joked about this being either success or death Master Zen (11:49 AM) : it is! no joke

And this PM with Lucky during the moderated chat simply confirms it:

quote: [17:13] [[ACS]MasterZen] I'm sorry it ended this way, I felt both of you really were quite stubborn, but all in all your demands were a bit more reasonable. This is just a personal observation, don't take it as official. [17:13] [Lucky] np, as I said, in the end it felt useless to discuss with goonie [17:13] [[ACS]MasterZen] Goonie is a loonie [17:13] [Lucky] and 30 minutes before the end, I already made our moves [17:14] [[ACS]MasterZen] there was no chance in hell you would have let them keep that city then? [17:14] [Lucky] no, you wouldnŽt either if youŽd know the map [17:15] [[ACS]MasterZen] we'll soon see [17:15] [Lucky] ah, already agreed on map exchange with CFC? [17:17] [[ACS]MasterZen] no, I was refering to WB and you negotiating a map deal [17:17] [Lucky] ah [17:17] [Lucky] ok [17:17] [[ACS]MasterZen] well, I've had enough negotiating for one day, I'm going AFK...

	17-06-2003 08:26									#10
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Seems as though it was a war that CFC blundered into. Ah well. It is sad, I suppose. However, the great threat is the expansion of power to our south. It is a good thing we have mercs...

	17-06-2003 08:38									#11
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I agree, MZ. GCA sees they have no choices. They are squeezed between CDG to the North, and a nation led by Goonie to the West. Not a good place to be.

I also snipped this:

quote: Lucky (11:21 AM) : because CFC has created a clearly military oriented outpost right next to our border and rather far from their homeland, with 10+ troops ready to be upgraded and poised to strike

	17-06-2003 08:42									#12
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Does that mean that they have the Gold to upgrade 10 Warriors!? Are we the only ones doing research here?




Dominae

	17-06-2003 09:02									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Does that mean that they have the Gold to upgrade 10 Warriors!? Are we the only ones doing research here?

According to GCA, they captured and razed the city, so there's apparently no units there (though they might have some gold stashed away).

	17-06-2003 09:13									#14
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All 10 units at once as of now would be too much to expect. But with hooking it up time of 9 plus turns, with barb farming and cutting back on research...

BTW, CFC does have horses, so this is likely to encourage them to get HBR ASAP, since their other iron is 20 turns away, and unless a threat from CDG disuades them, GCA will quickly toast a few or many CFC cities.

	17-06-2003 13:45									#15
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Who is actually the stronger civ (in military) here? What is the situation around that city? Can anyone give me a good overview of that?

	17-06-2003 13:51									#16
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Not really, BFM.

We have been told 12 CFC units (spear and warrior) around and near the city. At least 2 swords of GCA and it is close to their core. No other mention of GCA units that I know of.

	17-06-2003 14:06									#17
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I think GCA is the stronger in total military. I think that because of our own military stance with GCA and CFC.
On the turn (60) CDG became strong compared to us, so did GCA. CFC remained average. It could, of course, be a very minimal difference. GCA probably moved ahead of us and CFC by upgrading one or two warriors into swordsmen.
Let us just hope GCA does not completely crush CFC, that wouldn't be nice to us

	17-06-2003 14:10									#18
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One of the reasons I like the early war, is the lack of potential to do serious harm to each other. It is more like 2 6 year olds bashing at each other. As long as neither picks up something heavy... they can keep each other busy for a long time with infantile punches while no one actually gets overwhelmed.

Meanwhile, we build, build, build.

	17-06-2003 14:11									#19
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The 'something heavy' is where CDG comes in. Their immortals and smaller economy make a great stalemate with GCA's swords and size.

	17-06-2003 18:14									#20
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Just read the last part of the chat...

A slightly different perspective - it seems to me that GCA was the less yielding party there, although BOTH teams just forced the issue in the end - by attacking on GCA's part and by quitting on CFC's part, although Goonie's quitting was after the matter, and was thus a non-event.

I can understand that GCA felt threatened, but the border issue could have been dealt with later IMO, as long as CFC troops backed off except for a minimum for protection from barbs. The top issue, the Iron connection, was ready to be agreed to by CFC in what appeared to be a genuine concession, something remarkable from the tone of the chat. Anyway, this too is academic and largely hindsight-knowledge-based.

Now we must focus on what we can do - find out what each team demands in isolation for an end to hostilities (if such a thing is permissible). If it is not possible to find reasonable demands, then we may as well let them slug it out and weaken each other a bit but for considering one thing - how will this affect US?

Ignore whether CDG is secretly in league with GCA or whatever - we have a potential tech trade with CFC if the one with CDG falls through, and CDG are nothing if not less than efficient at their job. Will this delay our AltSp by much? Let's hear the opinions and ways in which this war could advantage/disadvantage US.

This will plunge our continent into warfare - neighbour against neighbour, in a conflict unknown on the great green land. We are on the fringes of such a conflict, but its toll will affect us in many ways, and we must examine these ways and make allowances. Planning is Poly's strength, and everyone must pull together to contribute to what may be a dark time for Poly, or indeed the opening of the very opportunity that we await...

	18-06-2003 03:14									#21
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The tech trade situation:

We are 8 turns from Code of Laws.

CDG is supposed to give us Math + Philosophy for MM within the next 13 turns or the tech trade is void.

They have finished & traded Math already and should be working on Philosophy. This war shouldn't slow their research down remarkably, however we still need to verify with them how far along their research is and remind them that we are done with our part.

GC is to trade us Mysticism and Polytheism for MM & HBR.

All indications are that when we signed this deal that they already had Mysticism. It's reasonable to conclude that they have Polytheism already as they have a stronger research base than us and are beelining to Monarchy. They could be in Monarchy very quickly, which would aid them in their war with CFC. They may want to scale back research to upgrade more warriors, however, we believe they are ahead of us in research and simply waiting for us to give them MM + HBR.

CFC was asked to give us Math + HBR for MM. This was done as a backup to CDG, as we were doubtful if they were going to research or stockup upgrade money.

CFC has horses, but no iron, and do not yet know horseback riding. They will race to HBR now to fight this war. They don't need cash, no iron to uggrade anything. We should be able to get HBR from them soon either for MM (and their promise to give us a good trade in the future), or for some other lesser tech we get like Philosophy.

All in all this war shouldn't delay our tech trading plans.

--Togas

	18-06-2003 03:16									#22
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(double post)

Last edited by Togas on 18-06-2003 at 21:50

	18-06-2003 07:24									#23
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For what it is worth - 'Goonie was a loonie' even during the game set up. Not sure of his age - but his level of maturity was never in doubt. And he clearly had issues with the rest of the team. A team that never really recognized his authority or standing.

	18-06-2003 09:03									#24
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With guys like CivGeneral on CFC's team, I think Goonie is the least of their worries...

	18-06-2003 12:37									#25
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If CDG provides us with Maths, what are we going to ask from CFC for MM?

	18-06-2003 13:45									#26
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We will ask for future tech consideration and gold, if they give it to us, great, if not....it was a deal we made; we must abide by it. Though we could probably try to muscle them a bit over the fact that they got Math from CDG and we already have it from CDG as well. We'll see how it works out, if they are in dire straits, maybe they agree to the future tech consideration in conjunction with maybe getting Iron from us at a later date.

	19-06-2003 07:05									#27
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Do we have any intelligence on how this war is going ?