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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:34
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Just chatted with Lucky via ICQ. It seems they are bent towards war for obvious reasons.
quote:
Lucky (10:16 AM) :
ok
Master Zen (10:52 AM) :
Hi Lucky, you there?
Lucky (10:53 AM) :
yes
Master Zen (10:54 AM) :
how's it going?  I was wondering if you could pare a few minutes and talk
ISDG stuff, sorry for being so insistent but well, situation doesn't look
good at all...
Lucky (10:57 AM) :
well, all we know right now was written in the short message I and HB sent
you yesterday
Lucky (11:00 AM) :
but of course I can answer any other question you have
Master Zen (11:02 AM) :
we talked to CFC yesterday
Master Zen (11:03 AM) :
they told us of the demands that GCA made for them to avoid a war
Master Zen (11:04 AM) :
frankly they assured us that they DON'T want war, so it surprises me why
each side seems to be throwing the ball around to the other side
Lucky (11:05 AM) :
well, I guess that both sides have too much to lose if they back off now
Master Zen (11:05 AM) :
why lose?
Master Zen (11:05 AM) :
on the contrary, I frankly don't see why this war is even necessary
Master Zen (11:06 AM) :
and it pretty much seems clear to me that ONE side is pushing it too far.
Lucky (11:06 AM) :
well, as we told you
Lucky (11:07 AM) :
it is rather clear that the initiating spark comes rather from our side now
Lucky (11:07 AM) :
but as we told you too
Lucky (11:07 AM) :
the reasons for our demands for peace date back to the first meeting with
CFC
Lucky (11:07 AM) :
and every other contact that we made
Master Zen (11:08 AM) :
so you are admitting that you are starting this, independently of past
relationships with CFC..
Master Zen (11:09 AM) :
what if CFC complies with your demands? will you stop then?
Lucky (11:13 AM) :
of course
Lucky (11:13 AM) :
"independently of past relationships with CFC"
Lucky (11:13 AM) :
no
Lucky (11:13 AM) :
quite appropriate to past behaviour of CFC towards us
Lucky (11:14 AM) :
they repeatedly threatened to attack us
Master Zen (11:14 AM) :
see, the problem is that we, in Apolyton, seem to be getting mixed feelings
about this, because CFC says one thing, GCA says another...
Lucky (11:14 AM) :
even in the first meeting their President (!!) told us to comply with their
demands or they would invade
Master Zen (11:14 AM) :
now considering you are dealing with a civ without iron, I honeslty don't
find it very smart for them to be agrressive to you at this point. I mean,
archers vs. swordsmen?
Lucky (11:14 AM) :
well
Lucky (11:15 AM) :
they do have horses
Lucky (11:15 AM) :
and quite a lot of more units than we have
Master Zen (11:15 AM) :
look, here's the deal
Lucky (11:15 AM) :
we had 3-5 troops stationed at our border, while they started with 6-8 and
have grown to 12+ by now
Master Zen (11:15 AM) :
it should be pretty obvious that Apolyton wants peace
Master Zen (11:16 AM) :
we have no borders with either of you, hence we don't feel threatened by
you, nor do you feel about us
Lucky (11:16 AM) :
indeed
Master Zen (11:16 AM) :
furthermore, we have good relationships with both
Lucky (11:16 AM) :
and we would really approciate if that stays this way
Master Zen (11:16 AM) :
and we expect to keep them that way, and hopefully make them stronger
Lucky (11:17 AM) :
yes
Master Zen (11:17 AM) :
that is why we would like to help you two mediate this
Master Zen (11:17 AM) :
set up a "continental" chat, tonight or maybe tomorrow
Master Zen (11:17 AM) :
and solve our differences on the negotiating table
Lucky (11:17 AM) :
well, first we want to have a look at what CFC did so far
Master Zen (11:17 AM) :
if you people really want to give peace a chance, this is the last chance
we might get
Lucky (11:18 AM) :
we have not attacked a single unit yet
Lucky (11:18 AM) :
well
Lucky (11:18 AM) :
the problem is
Lucky (11:18 AM) :
we want peace
Lucky (11:18 AM) :
but not at all costs
Master Zen (11:18 AM) :
obviously the idea of negotiating peace is that both of you will be
satisfied
Lucky (11:18 AM) :
and currently, the stakes we would lose are far too high
Master Zen (11:18 AM) :
stakes you would lose from peace? why?
Master Zen (11:20 AM) :
1) if you are so sure of victory, then there should be no reason to fear a
CFC attack
Master Zen (11:21 AM) :
2) if you are not so sure, then I don't know why it is GCA which is
pressing for demands to be met
Lucky (11:21 AM) :
because CFC has created a clearly military oriented outpost right next to
our border and rather far from their homeland, with 10+ troops ready to be
upgraded and poised to strike
Master Zen (11:21 AM) :
see, those are the things that need to be brought up
Lucky (11:22 AM) :
if we let them continue with that, they will have the ideal position to
support the unreasonable demands they made in beginning
Lucky (11:22 AM) :
oh, we did bring them up
Lucky (11:22 AM) :
but CFC clearly dismissed them
Lucky (11:22 AM) :
claiming they built there only for trading purposes
Master Zen (11:22 AM) :
with all of us present. See, we end up chatting with you and you make us
think CFC is being the asses than we talk to CFC and they make us think you
are being the asses, and we get nowhere with this 1-on-1
Lucky (11:23 AM) :
yet all they could possible trade with us is already ours or not of our
interest
Lucky (11:23 AM) :
oh I know
Master Zen (11:23 AM) :
well, assuming CFC does not attack you this turn would you agree to this
chat?
Lucky (11:23 AM) :
well, we gave CFC a chance for peace
Lucky (11:23 AM) :
if they attacked, we will respond accordingly
Master Zen (11:24 AM) :
of course
Master Zen (11:24 AM) :
but
Lucky (11:24 AM) :
if not, we could talk
Master Zen (11:24 AM) :
assuming they won't attack
Master Zen (11:24 AM) :
ok, that's a start
Master Zen (11:24 AM) :
look, we were thinking of having an "emergency" continental Non-aggression
Pact for 3 turns
Lucky (11:24 AM) :
it was always us that has sent envoys and proposals and requests for chats
to CFC
Master Zen (11:24 AM) :
that should give us time to bring up all the diplomatic options on the
table
Lucky (11:25 AM) :
never vice versa, except yesterday
Master Zen (11:25 AM) :
after that, if we get nowhere, then it will be inevitable but at least we
tried
Lucky (11:25 AM) :
so, we clearly took all diplomatic options possible
Master Zen (11:25 AM) :
except a mediated chat
Master Zen (11:25 AM) :
that is our last remaining option
Lucky (11:25 AM) :
yes
Master Zen (11:25 AM) :
Apolyton would be more than willing to mediate this for both of you because
of our special relationship with you two
Master Zen (11:26 AM) :
no-one likes friends to fight
Master Zen (11:26 AM) :
and worse, no one likes to take sides
Lucky (11:27 AM) :
oh, I donīt see any necessity for that
Lucky (11:27 AM) :
for you have nothing to gain from taking a side
Lucky (11:27 AM) :
only much to lose
Lucky (11:27 AM) :
namely the friendship of one side
Master Zen (11:27 AM) :
so, assuming you won't be attacked this turn, would you agree to a 3-turn
NAP, valid only until all teams sign?
Master Zen (11:28 AM) :
and make a chat within those 3 turns?
Master Zen (11:28 AM) :
this NAP would be applicable to all: Poly-CFC, CFC-CDG, GCA-CDG, CFC-GCA,
GCA-Poly, Poly-CDG
Lucky (11:28 AM) :
I have to take a look at the game first, then only I can say anything
definite
Master Zen (11:28 AM) :
if CFC doesn't attack will you refrain from doing so too?
Lucky (11:29 AM) :
if you remember, the taking sides thingy was the major reason for us to
rewrite our initial NAP
Lucky (11:29 AM) :
I have to see
Master Zen (11:29 AM) :
that's not good enough. If you attack you'll end up the agressor to
everyone else
Lucky (11:31 AM) :
of course
Lucky (11:31 AM) :
yet I cannot give you a definite message before seeing the save and talking
to my people
Lucky (11:31 AM) :
itīs not like itīs only my own decision
Master Zen (11:31 AM) :
look, let's be honesty about this, no BS, if you are bent on war, there is
absolutely nothing anyone can do to stop this. If this is so, then I don't
see any reason to continue trying to avoid this war. But if you truthfully,
honestly, in your team's heart desire peace, however unlikely it may seem,
I think the mature and rational thing would be to have the continental chat
before taking action
Lucky (11:32 AM) :
well, that is talking black or white you do there
Lucky (11:32 AM) :
we are neither totally bent on war
Lucky (11:32 AM) :
nor do we want peace at all costs
Master Zen (11:32 AM) :
exactly, and that cost to peace is what we want us all to negotiate
Master Zen (11:33 AM) :
obviously we'll try and reach a settlement which will be satisfactory to
you
Lucky (11:33 AM) :
we have told CFC our conditions for peace, some of which are negotiable,
while most are not
Lucky (11:33 AM) :
now we just have to wait and see what happened/happens
Lucky (11:34 AM) :
under a certain condition we will certainly consider another round of peace
talks
Master Zen (11:34 AM) :
what condition? i'm all ears
Lucky (11:34 AM) :
yet we have so far heard NOTHING back from CFC concerning our peace envoy
Lucky (11:34 AM) :
well, that would be the primary condition
Master Zen (11:34 AM) :
they told us yesterday they were discussing it
Lucky (11:35 AM) :
they would have to be ready for peace on our proposed terms, open for
negotiation in details but not the overall picture
Lucky (11:35 AM) :
well
Master Zen (11:35 AM) :
3 turns Lucky. Please accept this.
Master Zen (11:35 AM) :
Hell, 2 turns, if you want
Master Zen (11:36 AM) :
I'm sure they will
Lucky (11:36 AM) :
the best I can give you is a high possibility that if CFC didnīt attack, we
will not either
Master Zen (11:36 AM) :
Lucky, please think about this. It is serious. It is urgent.
Master Zen (11:37 AM) :
do you know who has the save btw?
Lucky (11:37 AM) :
but speaking in game terms, if they did not accept the peace treaty in
their turn, we aer at war
Lucky (11:37 AM) :
German team
Lucky (11:37 AM) :
war in game terms that is
Lucky (11:37 AM) :
yet CFC told us time and again that they only fully acknowledge those terms
Lucky (11:38 AM) :
otoh
Lucky (11:38 AM) :
while I fully understand your interest in peace
Lucky (11:38 AM) :
it is a making me a little curious why you would want it at all cost :S
Lucky (11:38 AM) :
IMO
Lucky (11:39 AM) :
a war among two rival teams, no matter the relation to them, will only
profitate the teams not involved
Master Zen (11:39 AM) :
exactly
Master Zen (11:39 AM) :
but you forget that the delicate balance of power will be broken
Lucky (11:39 AM) :
not quite
Master Zen (11:39 AM) :
and the long-term repercussions of this will be serious, no matter who wins
Lucky (11:39 AM) :
right now
Lucky (11:40 AM) :
from our standpoint, the balance of power is rather fair
Lucky (11:40 AM) :
and the score tablet we see does not really reflect that
Lucky (11:40 AM) :
since that does not only look at the current situation
Lucky (11:40 AM) :
but
Master Zen (11:40 AM) :
the point system is not really usefull, we all know that
Lucky (11:41 AM) :
if we let CFC continue with their current way
Lucky (11:41 AM) :
they will become the most powerful civ on this continent in no time
Lucky (11:41 AM) :
and in a few turns nobody would have the means to stop them
Master Zen (11:41 AM) :
so is this all pre-emption?
Lucky (11:42 AM) :
and in the future, once they get Riders, Iīm sure they wonīt waste those
UUs just sitting around
Master Zen (11:42 AM) :
well, CDG seems to be wasting their Immortals
Master Zen (11:42 AM) :
and we our Numidians 
Lucky (11:43 AM) :
with Riders, the biggest empire size and really good, productive terrain,
CFC will be unstoppable, even if we 3 put everything together
Master Zen (11:44 AM) :
i'm not so sure about that. We don't know how big their empire is
Master Zen (11:44 AM) :
from the score, not so big apparently
Lucky (11:44 AM) :
well, you donīt, yes
Lucky (11:44 AM) :
that would be their current empire
Master Zen (11:44 AM) :
look, in our PTW Demo Game, the #1 team right now has one of the crappiest
lands of all
Lucky (11:45 AM) :
by the time they have riders they could be 3-4 times as big, maybe even 5
times
Lucky (11:45 AM) :
oh, I fully understand that military power is not the only important thing
Master Zen (11:45 AM) :
those are security arrangements we would have to work out later
Lucky (11:45 AM) :
but I played the Chinese
Master Zen (11:45 AM) :
it is not in Apolyton's interest to have an overly powerful CFC
Lucky (11:46 AM) :
and their way is to wage war
Master Zen (11:46 AM) :
yep
Lucky (11:46 AM) :
and IMO
Lucky (11:46 AM) :
we are their prime targets
Lucky (11:46 AM) :
as they have threatened us with time and again
Master Zen (11:47 AM) :
I understand you full, don't get me wrong
Master Zen (11:47 AM) :
but you understand this war might not be a cake-walk, with CDG having
Immortals...
Lucky (11:47 AM) :
oh we know
Master Zen (11:47 AM) :
I don't think they'll remain very neutral about this whole thing
Lucky (11:48 AM) :
well, confidentially to you only
Lucky (11:48 AM) :
we think this is our only chance right now, we wonīt get one again
Lucky (11:48 AM) :
and it is by far not a really good chance
Master Zen (11:49 AM) :
I understand, but its a very risky thing to take the plunge like that
Lucky (11:49 AM) :
yes, we joked about this being either success or death
Master Zen (11:49 AM) :
it is! no joke 
Lucky (11:50 AM) :
not immediate death, rather slow and painful one
Master Zen (11:50 AM) :
heheeh
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:34
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...
quote:
Master Zen (11:51 AM) :
but I still don't see the worry (long-term) you seem to have good land, a
head start on prebuilding horsemen, you have swords. That should put you in
a good position when they get riders
Master Zen (11:52 AM) :
do you control the southern chokepoint (or think you can?)
Lucky (11:52 AM) :
yes, but CFC is quickly sealing up the other side
Master Zen (11:54 AM) :
well, back to the original topic, if CFC doesn't attack, do you think you
can agree to a 2-turn NAP and have a mediated discussion? If anything,
think about the propaganda leverage...
Lucky (11:55 AM) :
as I told you before, Iīm not the only one to make decisions
Master Zen (11:56 AM) :
If it comes to blows, 2 turns won't make much a difference
Lucky (11:56 AM) :
oh they will
Master Zen (11:57 AM) :
didn't you say the conflicting city is far away from their land? It's not
like they can move troops quickly...
Lucky (11:58 AM) :
I also said they have 12+ troops already there
Master Zen (11:59 AM) :
and your own army? you don't start wars unless you are prepared and have a
nice juicy stack to send, especially knowing they have 12+ units
Lucky (12:00 AM) :
of course
Master Zen (12:00 AM) :
so you are prepared
Lucky (12:01 AM) :
we hope so
Master Zen (12:02 AM) :
yet still, CFC can accept the demands at the last moment....
Lucky (12:02 AM) :
yes
Lucky (12:02 AM) :
they can accept them at any time
Master Zen (12:04 AM) :
which believe it or not they might actually do
Master Zen (12:04 AM) :
is there any part of those demands you would be willing to negotiate?
Lucky (12:05 AM) :
well, how much do you know?
Master Zen (12:06 AM) :
we know the conditions
Lucky (12:07 AM) :
well, we would of course have to renegotiate the exact conditions of the
city trade
Lucky (12:08 AM) :
the mountain range as future border is not negotiable
Lucky (12:08 AM) :
only itīs exact course of course
Master Zen (12:08 AM) :
if CFC were to remove all offensive units would you consider this as a
first step? a "good will" step perhaps?
Master Zen (12:09 AM) :
or will you take this as an invitation for an attack by GCA?
Lucky (12:09 AM) :
only in combination with at least the not connecting of the iron
Lucky (12:09 AM) :
and
Lucky (12:09 AM) :
agreement on future talks about the other points, or more, the details of
the other points
Master Zen (12:10 AM) :
ok, so, let's say this would be the "minimum acceptable":
Master Zen (12:10 AM) :
- remove offensive units from view
Master Zen (12:10 AM) :
- don't connect the iron
Master Zen (12:10 AM) :
if this were to be met next turn, would you agree to a 3-turn NAP and have
a mediate chat with them to discuss the other points?
Lucky (12:11 AM) :
of course, no attack and free movement of our own units anywhere on "our"
side of the mountain range as well
Lucky (12:12 AM) :
but
Lucky (12:12 AM) :
it might very well be that my people desperately want war
Lucky (12:12 AM) :
then there is not a lot I can do
Master Zen (12:12 AM) :
but,
Lucky (12:12 AM) :
it is a democracy game after all
Lucky (12:12 AM) :
Master Zen (12:12 AM) :
if CFC complies with your demands as is, you will be in breach of the
treaty and they can legitimately denouce you to the UN
Lucky (12:13 AM) :
well, officially
Lucky (12:13 AM) :
only if all demands are to be met we will have peace
Master Zen (12:13 AM) :
is that an 100% guarantee?
Lucky (12:15 AM) :
yes, if ALL (not the ones I told you, the earlier ones) are met now,
meaning the CFC president contacts me before our turn and fully accepts
those conditions, we will not attack and instead sign a in-game peace
treaty (if there is a proposed one) or send another one ourselves
Lucky (12:15 AM) :
that is the only 100% guarantee I can give
Lucky (12:15 AM) :
anything else has not been decided upon by the GCA council
Lucky (12:17 AM) :
if he contacts me before our turn and accepts part of the agreement
Lucky (12:17 AM) :
I can guarantee that there will be a HIGH possibility that we wonīt attack
Lucky (12:18 AM) :
not 100% but almost
Lucky (12:18 AM) :
and if they didnīt attack themselves, I can guarantee that there is a high
(>50%) chance that we wonīt attack
Master Zen (12:18 AM) :
ok, how about this. I honestly understand your situation, believe me, I
believe you have your reasons and should war come then, well, be it. But...
Master Zen (12:19 AM) :
forget about 3 turn NAP. JUST ONE TURN. yes, 1, I am 99% sure they will
agree to the "new" demands (the ones I just put) and we can set up a quick
chat tonight or tomorrow to settle the other parts of the deal.
Master Zen (12:20 AM) :
basically this just means you agree not to attack on THIS turn. 1 turn
should really not make much a difference if there is war, but if we get
peace, it will be VERY important.
Master Zen (12:20 AM) :
technically this is how it goes:
Lucky (12:21 AM) :
I can give you no 100% guarantee on that, as I said above
Lucky (12:21 AM) :
at least not before I looked at the save
Master Zen (12:21 AM) :
CFC will agree to send to you (before you get your turn) compliance with
the "new" demands, and a date for a mediated chat.
Master Zen (12:21 AM) :
that chat, if it is held, will be done before you receive your turn again.
Master Zen (12:22 AM) :
if anything, it will give you an advantage as they will remove their
offensive units THIS turn
Lucky (12:23 AM) :
or are just lying and moving in more units, while we donīt attack, so that
they can strike first
Lucky (12:25 AM) :
let us wait and see if anything happens before I get our turn
Lucky (12:25 AM) :
and if I do, I will look at it
Master Zen (12:25 AM) :
I can assure you that Apolyton has made it very clear to them that we will
not look favorably towards a CFC attack
Lucky (12:25 AM) :
yes, but as you said yourself
Lucky (12:25 AM) :
what can you do ...
Master Zen (12:26 AM) :
of course, we can't do much
Master Zen (12:26 AM) :
militarily
Lucky (12:26 AM) :
anyway, if the save still arrives here today, I also have to sort out the
thing about the patch
Master Zen (12:26 AM) :
but tech deals, NAPs, maps, stuff like that. There will be a rep hit
Lucky (12:26 AM) :
when I had a look at the save and the current situation, I can tell you
more
Lucky (12:26 AM) :
but right now, I think all things to say were said
Lucky (12:26 AM) :
Lucky (12:27 AM) :
and Iīm hungry
Master Zen (12:27 AM) :
pretty much
Master Zen (12:27 AM) :
I need to take a shower... :P
Lucky (12:27 AM) :
I was already in the pool twice today
Master Zen (12:27 AM) :
hehe... lucky you.
well, PLEEEASE consider the new "temporary" demands
Lucky (12:28 AM) :
anyway, do you have any idea if the UK patch is the correct one?
Master Zen (12:28 AM) :
as I said, I'm sure CFC will, and then we can negotiate the other part. If
not, war will start but at least we gave it one last chance
Lucky (12:28 AM) :
I posted about it at 1BC
Master Zen (12:28 AM) :
ummm... I don't know, UK patch came out today right?
Lucky (12:28 AM) :
http://civ3dg.1bigcommunity.com/community.asp?
id=10078&page=8&board=379&thread=21597&start=2&tPage=&tThreads=&ttl=16&sT=&
iG=
Lucky (12:28 AM) :
at least it should
Master Zen (12:29 AM) :
yeah, it should
Master Zen (12:29 AM) :
I still haven't upgraded mine
Master Zen (12:29 AM) :
well, actually I have a dual boot, but haven't played with anyone with a
non-US version
Lucky (12:31 AM) :
well, one thing that you can be assured of is that we consider EVERY
proposal and such
Lucky (12:31 AM) :
anyway
Lucky (12:31 AM) :
gtg now
Lucky (12:31 AM) :
bbl
Master Zen (12:32 AM) :
ok
Master Zen (12:32 AM) :
catch you later, nice talking to you, and hopefuly we can avoid this
Lucky (12:33 AM) :
well, war is always part of Civ3
Master Zen (12:33 AM) :
yeah, I know
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:34
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These are only the important bits, not the complete log which was posted 2 posts above
quote:
[14:58] [[ACS]MasterZen] welcome!
[14:58] [Lucky] well, how much can you decide alone CivG??
[14:59] [Lucky] hi Ek
[14:59] [Eklektikos] evening all
[14:59] [Trip-] hello
[14:59] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] Lucky - Well, when Oct returns, Ill tell him
the news
[14:59] [anarchywrksbest] Mr vice-president 
[14:59] [[ACS]MasterZen] so, now we start?
[14:59] [Lucky] ok
[15:00] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] k
[15:00] [[ACS]MasterZen] great
[15:00] [Lucky] how about I start with the minimum requests we have
[15:00] [[ACS]MasterZen] first wait:
[15:00] [[ACS]MasterZen] one little point: GCA HAS THE SAVE. Just to give
this a sense of urgency (which there is)
[15:01] [Lucky] indeed
[15:01] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] hehe
[15:01] [Lucky] I have just opened it and looked whether CFC attacked,
which would have made this chat useless
[15:01] [[ACS]MasterZen] and so apparently there has been no attack
[15:01] [Lucky] but I have to upgrade to v1.21f before I do anything
[15:02] [[ACS]MasterZen] which is a start, I believe
[15:02] [WhiteBandit] we are upgrading to 1.21 already?
[15:02] [Lucky] yes, we are starting today
[15:02] [WhiteBandit] wow, the last 3 turns flew by
[15:02] [Lucky] well, finally 1 turn/day
[15:03] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] yep
[15:03] [[ACS]MasterZen] ok, now, here's the deal, GCA has made a set of
demands towards CFC
[15:03] [Lucky] 1. CFC is to remove all units beyond the mountain range
[15:03] [Lucky] unit not guarding the city that is
[15:04] [Lucky] 2. in combination with at least the not connecting of the
iron
[15:04] [Lucky] and
[15:04] [Lucky] 3. agreement on future talks about details of the other
points, not the general idea
[15:05] [[ACS]MasterZen] please state the "general idea" so it is clear to
all
[15:05] [Lucky] meaning you agree to the mountain range being our future
border and trading Yun Fen, details about those 2 points to be worked out
[15:05] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] [16:05] [%Chieftess] We BORDER the mountain
range!!!
[15:06] [Lucky] the mountain range is ... 7 tiles wide
[15:06] [Lucky] 4 tiles on its mimimum
[15:06] [[ACS]MasterZen] that's one hell of a mountain range... :P
[15:06] [Lucky] indeed
[15:06] [Lucky] a natural border
[15:07] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] The CFC are interested in setting up an Iron
resource collection there
[15:07] [Lucky] which is our #1 condition to stop
[15:07] [[ACS]MasterZen] first of all, I presume there is but 1 iron in
that range, and that iron is the "disputed" iron?
[15:08] [Lucky] yes
[15:08] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] yes
[15:08] [Lucky] there is another one north on bordering hills
[15:08] [Lucky] but that is away from the mtn range
[15:08] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] true
[15:09] [[ACS]MasterZen] that one is not "claimed" I assume?
[15:10] [Lucky] nope
[15:10] [Lucky] except a Poly warrior sitting on it and turning to stone
[15:10] [[ACS]MasterZen] we just might...
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For the record, Mara Jade is actually CivGeneral
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:34
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Discussion of the geography around the disputed city:
quote:
[15:17] [[ACS]MasterZen] ok, explain to me like I'm a n00b: this mountain
range goes N-S, E-W, what? where is CFC's city and iron?
[15:17] [anarchy] N-S
[15:17] [[ACS]MasterZen] ok, CFC presumably is west of this right?
[15:17] [anarchy] CFC empire is the west side, yes
[15:18] [anarchy] The city is on the east
[15:18] [[ACS]MasterZen] ooooh...
[15:19] [Lucky] well
[15:19] [Lucky] before we go into the detail
[15:19] [[ACS]MasterZen] yes
[15:19] [Lucky] is there any chance that CFC will comply with those
conditions?
[15:19] [Lucky] mentioned above
[15:20] [Lucky] if not, I can play and donīt have to let the others waiting
so long
[15:20] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] I have goten hold to one of the other MSDGers
in CFC
[15:20] [Lucky] FYI, we are and will always be open for negotiation
[15:20] [Lucky] not only now
[15:20] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] Hmm, well one thing is the people want to have
that source of Iron
[15:21] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] We can have the Iron, and later on we can trade
an extra Iron source to you
[15:22] [WhiteBandit] GCA already has Iron I believe?
[15:22] [anarchy] You can never have enough
[15:22] [[ACS]MasterZen] hehe, it's a DRUG
[15:22] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] hehe
[15:23] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] But you only need one iron
[15:23] [Eklektikos] the main issue at stake here is the proximity of the
CFC city to us, and its egress over the natural physical border imposed by
the mountain range
[15:23] [Lucky] well said
[15:23] [Eklektikos] along with the small horde of warriors nearby
[15:23] [Lucky] or rather huge horde
[15:23] [Lucky] for these times
[15:24] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] Well, we had been jumpy since that Warrior has
set up camp there
[15:24] [anarchy] Yes. . . ONE warrior - how terrifying
[15:24] [[ACS]MasterZen] so, if CFC agreed to move those warriors could we
start seeing peace on the horizon...
[15:24] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] k
[15:25] [anarchy] only if it is followed by the rest of our proposal
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:34
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before this part, they revealed that the GCA warrior was still sitting on the iron tile.
quote:
[15:47] [[ACS]MasterZen] ok, then lets get on with this
[15:48] [[CFC]Goonie] If all our units are to be east of the mountain
range, does that mean your units will vacate Yun Feng cultural borders
[15:48] [[GCA]anarchywrksbest] EAST?
[15:48] [Lucky] applying patch now, hopefully itīs the right one :S
[15:49] [[CFC]Goonie] D'oh
[15:49] [[CFC]Goonie] West
[15:49] [[GCA]anarchywrksbest] When we say beyond the mountain range we
mean beyond your side
[15:49] [[CFC]Goonie] Yes, yes, I know
[15:50] [Lucky] v1.21f here I come
[15:50] [[CFC]Goonie] So do you have an answer?
[15:50] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] Though we had our eye on that Iron ever since
it poped up on the map
[15:50] [Eklektikos] A popish plot?
[15:50] [Eklektikos] sorry, couldn't resist
[15:51] [[GCA]anarchywrksbest] Bloody pope, I kew it was all his fault :S
[15:51] [[GCA]anarchywrksbest] *knew
[15:51] [[ACS]MasterZen] should stay in the vatican where he belongs! :P
[15:51] [Eklektikos] anyway, removal of your units to the west of the
mountain range is only one point
[15:51] [[GCA]anarchywrksbest] All points should be accepted
[15:51] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] but about the movement of that warrior on the
iron
[15:51] [[CFC]Goonie] Excuse me Lucky or Anarchy, may you please
concentrate on the current topic. If our troops are withdrawn to the West,
will you troops vacate our cultural borders?
[15:51] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] would that happen?
[15:52] [[CFC]Goonie] What happens to your troops ?
[15:52] [[GCA]anarchywrksbest] Only if ALL points are agreed to
[15:53] [[CFC]Goonie] Ok now for number 2
[15:53] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] But if all points are aggred to, then how can
we have our iron?
[15:53] [Lucky] Goonie, you donīt seem to understand our proposal
[15:53] [Lucky] that was made/posted yesterday by your President in your
forum I presume
[15:53] [[CFC]Goonie] What about our second source. you are not going to
turn around and repeat this at our second source will you?
[15:53] [Lucky] now
[15:54] [[CFC]Goonie] What was made our posted? I read CG's quote
[15:54] [Lucky] what I told FortyJ yesterday
[15:54] [[CFC]Goonie] wow that made no sense
[15:54] [Lucky] and what FortyJ told you and Poly, too
[15:54] [[CFC]Goonie] What was this?
[15:55] [[CFC]Goonie] I am looking at the proposal CG has sent me . It is a
quote from you
[15:55] [Lucky] 1. Remove all your units beyond the mountain range.
[15:55] [Lucky] 2. Trade Yun Fen and do NOT connect the iron.
[15:55] [Lucky] 3. Accept a peace treaty with the mountain range as final
and future border between our nations.
[15:55] [Lucky] that was the initial conditions for peace and still are
[15:55] [[CFC]Goonie] Trade Yun Feng or do not connect the iron?
[15:56] [[CFC]Goonie] or is it AND
[15:56] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] Goonie - I beleve it is AND
[15:56] [Lucky] for now, we wouldnīt attack you if you accepted
[15:56] [Lucky] [Lucky] 1. CFC is to remove all units beyond the mountain
range
[15:56] [Lucky] [Lucky] unit not guarding the city that is
[15:56] [Lucky] [Lucky] 2. in combination with at least the not connecting
of the iron
[15:56] [Lucky] [Lucky] and
[15:56] [Lucky] [Lucky] 3. agreement on future talks about details of the
other points, not the general idea
[15:56] [[ACS]MasterZen] I think that should be the proposal we should work
on
[15:56] [Lucky] see point 3.
[15:57] [[CFC]Goonie] Lucky, this has already been put to the Senate, and
was shut down. Unless you are willing to negotiate, this discussion is moot
[15:57] [Eklektikos] mind if I ask what authority you have, Goonie?
[15:58] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] Ekl - Goonie and I are the Co-Captians of the
CFC team
[15:58] [[CFC]Goonie] I am the Ambassador to Apolyton and Team Captain, and
I know the results of votes in my nation
[15:58] [[CFC]Goonie] Do you mind if I aks your authority Eklekitkos?
[15:58] [Eklektikos] well done
[15:58] [[CFC]Goonie] Now, are you willing to negotiate or not?
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:34
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My rant, and this is the closest we ever came to peace:
quote:
[15:59] [[ACS]MasterZen] 4 before this continues there are a few things I
need to make public to BOTH Teams:
[15:59] [Lucky] we are willing to discussing details of these conditions
[15:59] [[ACS]MasterZen] 4First to CFC:
[16:00] [[ACS]MasterZen] I don't know if you are really understanding the
gravity of this situation
[16:00] [[ACS]MasterZen] you are on the brink of a war against a
civilization which has Iron, whereas you lack said resource
[16:00] [[ACS]MasterZen] you have a city far away from your core which is
very vulnerable to attack, despite it's strategic significance
[16:00] * BigFree|Asleep has joined #givepeace
[16:01] * BigFree|Asleep is now known as BigFree
[16:01] [[ACS]MasterZen] should war start, that city will most likely fall,
that is a fact
[16:01] * BigFree is now known as [ACS]BigFree
[16:01] [[ACS]MasterZen] I don't know about you, but I would think twice
about getting too aggressive with a civ with iron, when you don't have it,
this happened in our own PTWDG and it was very nasty
[16:02] [[ACS]MasterZen] 4 Now to GCA:
[16:02] [[ACS]MasterZen] Technically you two had no border agreements made,
even informally as far as we've been told
[16:02] [[ACS]MasterZen] therefore, technically also, CFC has a right to
build a city where it did
[16:03] [[ACS]MasterZen] even despite the fact there is a strategic resouce
in its radius
[16:03] [Lucky] yes, and technically we have every right to be anywhere,
since as you said, no border treaty existed
[16:03] [[ACS]MasterZen] yes, but not where they have a city
[16:03] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] but we have out Culture Border in it
[16:03] [[ACS]MasterZen] 4please let me continue, I'm not through yet
[16:04] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] both sides, please be quiet at the moment,
thanks
[16:04] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] oops... x-post
[16:04] [[ACS]MasterZen] placing a unit within the city radius is not an
accepted move, neither in SP games or MP games, this ISDG should be no
exception
[16:04] [[ACS]MasterZen] In apolyton's case we have had that happen, and
have made it clear that we would move our unit next turn: this happened
once with GCA
[16:05] [[ACS]MasterZen] 4 Now to BOTH OF YOU:
[16:05] [[ACS]MasterZen] We understand both of your arguments
[16:05] [[ACS]MasterZen] if you ask me, there is a lot of truth in what you
speak, and because of this, I am sure there is a middle ground we can
settle upon
[16:06] [[ACS]MasterZen] that is why we offered to mediate this conflict,
as we pose no threat to you nor you to us, we have fine relationships with
both and expect to keep them that way
[16:06] [[ACS]MasterZen] No, the following will be a no-bullshit appraisal
of the situation:
[16:07] [[ACS]MasterZen] Fun Yeung is a very strategic city
[16:07] [[ACS]MasterZen] it hold the most important resource, and I'm sure
GCA consideres it a springboard for a possible CFC attack
[16:07] [[ACS]MasterZen] CFC can send a stack of warriors and upgrade them
if that iron is connected and the city has a barracks
[16:08] [[ACS]MasterZen] If I were GCA I would feel VERY uneasy about this,
and I'm sure they do right now
[16:08] [[ACS]MasterZen] on the other hand, CFC has legitimate claims for
that city, so, I think the compromise should be made along the following
lines:
[16:09] [[ACS]MasterZen] 3CFC should be allowed to keep that city, but
receive some guarantee that it may not be used as a springboard for attack
[16:09] [[ACS]MasterZen] furthermore, point 1) of the demands should be
fully agreed upon by both
[16:09] [[ACS]MasterZen] as well as not connecting the iron, point 2)
[16:10] [Lucky] it is not like we demand the city
[16:10] [Lucky] we want to fully compensate CFC for it
[16:10] [[ACS]MasterZen] you two should also sit together and think of an
official border, and hopefully accomodate that city into the plan
[16:10] [[CFC]Goonie] One quick question
[16:10] [Lucky] which poses a rather impossible problem
[16:11] [[ACS]MasterZen] 4 time for you to speak
[16:11] [[CFC]Goonie] We need assurances that GCA will not attempt to
replicate this situation at our second iron site.
[16:11] [Lucky] of course, our plans only reach as far as the mountain
range
[16:11] [[ACS]MasterZen] ok
[16:11] [Lucky] but it is getting very late now
[16:11] [[CFC]Goonie] Are you willing to allow us to keep our city?
[16:11] [Lucky] Iīm loading the game and moving the units not involved
[16:11] [[CFC]Goonie] If we do not connect it?
[16:12] * [GCA]anarchywrksbest has quit IRC (Ping timeout )
[16:12] [Lucky] [Lucky] we want to fully compensate CFC for it
[16:12] [[CFC]Goonie] We are not prepared to trade cities when we had all
the rights to settle that land
[16:12] [[CFC]Goonie] No agreement was made.
[16:12] [[ACS]MasterZen] Goonie, would you agree to not connecting the
iron?
[16:13] [[CFC]Goonie] Yes, I believe the Senate would agree
[16:13] [[ACS]MasterZen] permanently that is?
[16:13] [[CFC]Goonie] I am almost positive.
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:34
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Goonie gets stubborn:
quote:
[16:16] [[CFC]Goonie] Now, Lucky, will you agree to a time limit where Yun
Feng's Iron will not be connected.
[16:16] [Eklektikos] I am also aware that treaties need to be ratified by
referendum by both parties before they can be considered binding...
[16:16] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] 30 turns perhaps
[16:16] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Eklektikos - would you be willing to ratify a
treaty?
[16:17] [[CFC]Goonie] Also, Apolyton is a witness that you have said that
you will not repeat this at our second site.
[16:17] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] or attempt to ratify one at least?
[16:17] [[CFC]Goonie] Ek, at least post it on your forums for a vote.
[16:17] [Lucky] I donīt think you understand
[16:17] [Lucky] we already had votes
[16:17] [Lucky] many of them
[16:17] [[CFC]Goonie] Yes, but this is a NEW situation
[16:18] [[ACS]MasterZen] Goonie: look at it this way:
[16:18] [[CFC]Goonie] Things change
[16:18] [Lucky] and this is the "best" for you we could come up with
[16:18] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Goonie - a time limit and the second site are
moot points at the moment. drop that issue. the main thing to understand is
4are Apolyton's arguments against both sides making any sense at all?
[16:18] [[CFC]Goonie] yes they are.
[16:18] [[ACS]MasterZen] if GCA built a city on the WEST side on top of a
luxury, would CFC like it? Of course not!
[16:18] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Lucky - are we making sense to you?
[16:18] [Lucky] of course
[16:18] [[CFC]Goonie] I understand GCA's fears
[16:18] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] same
[16:18] [[ACS]MasterZen] they are very VERY valid fears
[16:18] [[ACS]MasterZen] you would feel the same
[16:18] [[CFC]Goonie] Master Zen, our city is not close to the heart of GCA
lands
[16:18] [[ACS]MasterZen] therefore, you need to give them an assurance that
that city will not pose a threat
[16:19] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] But we should reassure GCA that we will not
attack them
[16:19] [[CFC]Goonie] It is far closer to our core
[16:19] [Lucky] I think the best idea is if we just go and flatten that
city and then we can talk again
[16:19] [[ACS]MasterZen] no, that would not do... :P
[16:19] [[CFC]Goonie] Lucky, That would not go well when we meet the rest
of the world.
[16:19] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] yes
[16:19] [[CFC]Goonie] You are not willing to compromise
[16:19] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Gentlemen, please
[16:19] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] A Rep hit, r something
[16:20] * [ACS]BigFree is now known as BigFree
[16:20] [Eklektikos] it would remove a number of the sticking points here,
you must admit that as a solution it has a certain elegance
[16:20] [[ACS]MasterZen] look, to me I honestly don't see how CFC's demands
are unreasonalbe except for the city changing hands
[16:20] [[CFC]Goonie] We are prepared to agree to a time limit in which
THAT iron will not be connected. But I assure you that our other iron will
be connected shortly.
[16:20] [[CFC]Goonie] GCA's demands*
[16:20] [[CFC]Goonie] We dont have any.
[16:20] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] if you have another iron connecting shortly,
what is the point of connecting it in Yun Feng?
[16:20] [[ACS]MasterZen] yes, GCA's demands, sorry
[16:21] [[ACS]MasterZen] exactly, why the rush then?
[16:21] [[CFC]Goonie] EXACTLY!
[16:21] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] You guys are being stubborn Goonie?
[16:21] [Lucky] very good question
[16:21] [[CFC]Goonie] We wont connect it.
[16:21] [Lucky] oh, how suddenly
[16:21] [[ACS]MasterZen] but you can
[16:21] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] We will not connect it untill a certan time
limit has passed
[16:21] [[CFC]Goonie] But, we cannot agree to it indefinitly
[16:21] [[CFC]Goonie] We want a sunset clause placed on it.
[16:21] [[ACS]MasterZen] goonie: we're not talking about the other iron
[16:21] [[CFC]Goonie] I know!
[16:21] [Lucky] which would not be necessary if you agree to the mountain
range clause
[16:21] [[ACS]MasterZen] just this one: don't connect it. Simple as that
[16:21] [Lucky] look
[16:22] [Lucky] there is place for maybe 3 cities on our side of the range
[16:22] [Lucky] now that your city is there, that is almost reduced to 1
[16:22] [[CFC]Goonie] Excuse me?
[16:22] * BigFree is now known as [ACS]BigFree
[16:22] [[CFC]Goonie] ok here is a proposal
[16:22] [[CFC]Goonie] One sec
[16:22] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Lucky - the problem is, you guys haven't agreed
on a border
[16:22] [Lucky] so, letting you keep your city, especially with us being
cutlural, is moot
[16:22] [[ACS]MasterZen] exactly, CFC has every right to build a city thre
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:34
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More stubbonrness:
quote:
[16:22] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] Goonie has a proposal to make
[16:23] [[CFC]Goonie] Peace Proposal
[16:23] [[CFC]Goonie] 1 - CFC will not connect the iron for a period of 30
turns.
[16:23] [[CFC]Goonie] 2 - Negotiations shall take place afterwards
concerning land claims and where borders shall lie.
[16:24] [[CFC]Goonie] There, can you agree to that?
[16:24] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] What about moving your units?
[16:24] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] that is a big point the GCA's peace proposal?
[16:24] [[CFC]Goonie] All our units are in our cultural borders
[16:24] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] but they pose an uneasy threat.
[16:24] [[ACS]MasterZen] I doubt they'll go for that
[16:24] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] W elcome B ack - We will assure you, that as
Military Advisor, will make sure that they return home
[16:24] [Lucky] suuuure, you will not connect this iron, but the other one,
then we wait 30 turns, you connect this one and have 20+ swordsmen standing
by
[16:24] [[CFC]Goonie] WE need to protect our workers
[16:25] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] THen move your offensive units
[16:25] [Lucky] good time to negotiate
[16:25] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] that is what they want
[16:25] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] Right from Barbarians
[16:25] [[CFC]Goonie] LuckY! We can get swords beofre the 30 turns are up
anyways
[16:25] [[CFC]Goonie] So it will not matter anymore
[16:25] [[ACS]MasterZen] then why the 30 turns at all???
[16:25] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] Quit with the belly aching about us building up
a force
[16:25] [[CFC]Goonie] Are Warriors offensive?
[16:25] [Lucky] 2 - Negotiations shall take place afterwards concerning
land claims and where borders shall lie.
[16:25] [Lucky] nothing about the iron
[16:25] [Lucky] so
[16:26] [Lucky] you want to negotiate once you have a bigger army
[16:26] [[CFC]Goonie] Look at 1.
[16:26] [Lucky] simple as that
[16:26] [[CFC]Goonie] No!
[16:26] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Hey Boys, may I interject
[16:26] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] [17:23] [[CFC]Goonie] 1 - CFC will not connect
the iron for a period of 30 turns.
[16:26] [[CFC]Goonie] We want peace, then we will talk borders
[16:26] [Lucky] also meaning, you have a weaker army now
[16:26] [Lucky]
[16:27] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] Peace first then Border negotiations
[16:27] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Goonie - you do realize why GCA wants to go to
war over this city right?
[16:27] [[ACS]MasterZen] this is getting nowhere with this attitude
[16:27] [[CFC]Goonie] Yes
[16:27] [[ACS]MasterZen] Goonie: it's not the fact you get swordsmen, its
that you may move warriors and do an upgrade rush
[16:27] [[CFC]Goonie] Let me point out why there fears are unfounded
[16:28] [[ACS]MasterZen] let's be honest, you you be accepting this deal if
it were the other way around?
[16:28] [[CFC]Goonie] 1 - We have other Iron.
[16:28] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] 1. The GCA fears that we would build an Army of
Swordsmen
[16:28] [[CFC]Goonie] 2- We have other Barracks
[16:28] [[ACS]MasterZen] but not connected to the iron
[16:28] [Lucky] MasterZen, If we would be in CFCīs position, yes
[16:28] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Goonie - then why do you need to connect this
iron?
[16:28] [Lucky] but we wouldnīt have expanded and been so aggressive from
the beginning
[16:28] [[ACS]MasterZen] Lucky: I meant CFC's proposal
[16:28] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] One thing, it is closer to our homeland
[16:28] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Besides, it is across a mountain range of at
least 4 tiles
[16:28] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] it will take forever to connect it to your city
[16:28] [[CFC]Goonie] We dont right now, but putting a 30 turn limit lets
us connect incase it disappears
[16:29] [[ACS]MasterZen] huh?
[16:29] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] A little sense of insurance incase the other
iron goes *poof*
[16:29] [[CFC]Goonie] Exactly
[16:29] * [ACS]BigFurryMonster waves good-bye. He's off to bed.
[16:29] [[CFC]Goonie] Good night
[16:29] [[ACS]MasterZen] cya BFM
[16:29] [Eklektikos] g'night BFM
[16:29] [Lucky] yes, and I should too
[16:29] * [ACS]BigFurryMonster has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset
by peer )
[16:29] [Lucky] actually I wanted to go to bed 30min ago :S
[16:30] [[CFC]Goonie] Well, can you agree to this Lucky?
[16:30] * [CFC_MA]Mara_Jade has a quill with inc in one hand
[16:30] * [GCA]anarchywrksbest has joined #givepeace
[16:30] [Lucky] emm, not really
[16:30] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] Lucky - Then lets here your counter
[16:30] [[CFC]Goonie] Please list your concerns and how you would like to
change the proposal
[16:30] [Lucky] Goonie, why donīt you simply say if you can accept our
conditions instead of repeating your own :S
[16:31] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Lucky - Please clarify something for me. Is
there anyway possible that CFC can keep their city? Under what conditions?
[16:31] [[CFC]Goonie] I have already told you that our nation cannot trade
cities
[16:31] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] Trading is not an option
[16:31] [[ACS]MasterZen] if CFC could keep that city, I would like to
respectfully ask CFC to agree to the rest of the GCA treaty
[16:31] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Yes
[16:32] [[CFC]Goonie] Have you two seen a map of the location in question?
[16:32] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] nope
[16:32] [[ACS]MasterZen] us no
[16:32] [[ACS]MasterZen] although if you want to pass us your map...
[16:32] [[CFC]Goonie] Well that mountain range is rightt beside our core.
[16:32] [[CFC]Goonie] Why would we give it up?
[16:32] [[CFC]Goonie] I say
[16:32] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] We don't care about that right now...
[16:32] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] it makes no sense
[16:32] [[GCA]anarchywrksbest] The mountain range is very wide
[16:32] [[CFC]Goonie] Whoever settles it, SETTLES IT!
[16:33] [[CFC]Goonie] It is a race!
[16:33] [[ACS]MasterZen] true
[16:33] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] That's nice, we can justify both sides actions
all night
[16:33] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] The classic Settler's Law
[16:33] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Can we focus on what each side wants please?
[16:33] [[CFC]Goonie] If GCA had settled that IROn, no problem
[16:33] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Lucky - regarding CFC's city?
[16:34] [[ACS]MasterZen] 4so, that's why I'm saying ON WHAT CONDTITION
WOULD GCA ALLOW CFC'S CITY AND IF SO, WOULD CFC ACCEPT THE REST OF GCA'S
DEMANDS?? COME ON PEOPLE, CONCEDE A LITTLE DAMMIT!
[16:34] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] If you are both going to be stubborn and
unyielding
[16:34] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] we are all wasting our time then
[16:34] [[ACS]MasterZen] we will get nowhere :P
[16:34] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] admit it now so we can go take care of other
things
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:34
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And it all went to hell here:
quote:
[16:51] [[ACS]MasterZen] look, some people need to sleep or go to bed. I
propose the following:
[16:51] [[ACS]MasterZen] 4 1 turn NAP and we continue tomorrow or tonight
[16:51] [Lucky] no
[16:51] [[ACS]MasterZen] or we settle this right now
[16:51] [[GCA]anarchywrksbest] Hell no
[16:51] [[CFC]Goonie] Yes
[16:52] [Eklektikos] not happening
[16:52] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] Yes
[16:52] [[GCA]anarchywrksbest] Wel that was a fun vote
[16:52] [[ACS]MasterZen] hahaha
[16:52] [Lucky] I initially said that CFC would have to contact us PRIOR to
the save arriving
[16:52] [Trip-] LoL
[16:52] [Lucky] they did not
[16:52] [[CFC]Goonie] Permanent no-connect of Iron at Yun Feng unlees main
source disappears? No or Yes
[16:52] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Lucky - if CFC does not connect the iron (unless
their main source disappears) and they agree on the border, would this be
acceptable?
[16:52] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Goonie - would you agree to this?
[16:52] [Lucky] I furthermore agreed to coming here, before playing our
turn, costing our time
[16:52] [[CFC]Goonie] Not the border. We will talk border after peace
[16:52] [Lucky] yet we have reached nothing
[16:52] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Lucky - you have green hours
[16:53] [[GCA]anarchywrksbest] WILL EVERYONE BE QUIET! Please stop
proposing stuff for a second
[16:53] [Lucky] green hours start in 5 hours
[16:53] [[CFC]Goonie] No Iron unless main source disapears. Yes or No.
[16:53] [[CFC]Goonie] CFC= yes
[16:53] [[CFC]Goonie] Pending a vote.
[16:53] [[CFC_MA]Mara_Jade] CFC=yes
[16:53] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Goonie - what about the rest?
[16:53] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] The border?
[16:53] [[CFC]Goonie] Borders after.
[16:54] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] This WILL NOT work unless you accept the border
[16:54] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] No.
[16:54] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Border now
[16:54] [[ACS]MasterZen] nope
[16:54] [[ACS]MasterZen] goonie: BORDER
[16:54] [[CFC]Goonie] Look WB. You have not seen the map
[16:54] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] I don't care
[16:54] [[CFC]Goonie] Niether one.
[16:54] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] If you don't accept the border, say so.
[16:54] [[CFC]Goonie] That border is RIDICULOUS
[16:54] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] SO I can go
[16:54] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] I have stuff to do.
[16:54] [[ACS]MasterZen] me too
[16:54] [[CFC]Goonie] No to border
[16:54] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Fine.
[16:54] [[CFC]Goonie] LUCKY] Yes or no?
[16:54] [[ACS]MasterZen] is that definitive goonie?
[16:54] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Gentlemen, I wish you the best of luck in this
battle.
[16:54] [[CFC]Goonie] To my most recent proposal
[16:54] [[ACS]MasterZen] Goonie: THINK THIS OUT PLEEEEEASE
[16:55] [[CFC]Goonie] Ill post it and see
[16:55] [[ACS]MasterZen] why no border?
[16:55] [Lucky] well, I conclude this meeting with the following
[16:55] [Lucky] The point is now moot. In the face of their constant
delaying tactics and attempts to fudge the issue we have taken action and
the town of Yun Feng is now dust. Goodnight.
[16:55] * E_T has joined #givepeace
[16:55] [[ACS]MasterZen] 4 Goonie this is the last time!
[16:55] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] Congratulations CFC.
[16:55] [[ACS]MasterZen] you really blew it
[16:55] [[CFC]Goonie] Excuse me?
[16:55] * [CFC]Goonie has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving )
[16:55] [[GCA]anarchywrksbest] 01,07 07 07,99 01THE GAMECATCHER ALLIANCE
OFFICIALLY DECLARES OUR INTENTIONS TO KICK YOUR WHINY ASSES OFF THE FACE OF
THE PLANET :d
[16:55] [[GCA]anarchywrksbest]
[16:56] * [CFC_MA]Mara_Jade looks at goonie
[16:56] [Lucky] hmm, you need to work on your diplomatic tongue nrk
[16:56] * [ACS]Togas sighs.
[16:56] [Lucky] anyway
[16:56] [[ACS]MasterZen] this is sad
[16:56] [[ACS]MasterZen] so close
[16:56] [[ACS]WhiteBandit] yeah
[16:56] [Trip-] oh well
[16:56] [Lucky] can we come back to the more important issue now?
[16:56] [[ACS]Togas] I thought you had something 30 mins ago
[16:56] [[ACS]MasterZen] but well
[16:56] [[GCA]anarchywrksbest] ANARCHY'S GONNA MESS CFC UP! CFC GONNS LIKE
IT!! :mwaha:
[16:56] * Trip- dons his finest Imperial Armor
[16:56] * [ACS]MasterZen commits suicide after 3 hours of nothing... :P
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:34
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chat with Goonie earlier today. The accepted (informally) the map and tech deals:
quote:
Session Start: Fri Jun 20 18:06:36 2003
Session Ident: Goonie
[18:06] [MasterZen] got a sec?
[18:06] [Goonie] ya
[18:07] [Goonie] Where should we go?
[18:08] [MasterZen] here is ok
[18:08] [MasterZen] it's a quicke
[18:08] [Goonie] ok
[18:08] [MasterZen] let's talk maps
[18:08] [Goonie] Ah, we can do that trade now
[18:08] [Goonie] We have HbR
[18:08] [MasterZen] yep
[18:08] [Goonie] I can direct the Pres to accept your previous offer
[18:09] [MasterZen] just one thing though...
[18:09] [Goonie] ya
[18:10] [MasterZen] we were looking to get GCA's map
[18:10] [Goonie] Yes.
[18:10] [MasterZen] after getting that map we were planning on trading it to you for yours, that way you could get to see their territory and perhaps would help you a bit
[18:10] [MasterZen] problem is, Lucky ain't falling for it...
[18:10] [Goonie] lol
[18:11] [Goonie] Thanks for trying
[18:11] [MasterZen] he wants to trade, but wants a guarantee we wont later trade to you
[18:11] [MasterZen] so, we came up with an alternative
[18:11] [Goonie] Sounds good
[18:11] [MasterZen] bascially we will offer the same deal to both of you: maps, no-trade during the war.. bla bla bla
[18:12] [Goonie] What?
[18:12] [MasterZen] on the same turn we will gift both of you our map (accepted)
[18:12] [Goonie] ma war?
[18:12] [Goonie] Ah, Genius!
[18:12] [MasterZen] they trashed your city and you're not at war?
[18:12] [Goonie] oh yes we are at war
[18:12] [MasterZen] and on the next turn you gift us your map. That way neither of you see's each other's map
[18:12] [Goonie] I didn't understand what ma meant
[18:13] [Goonie] Ok, one sec
[18:14] [Goonie] Horseback Riding, MAth
[18:14] [Goonie] For MM
[18:14] [Goonie] When you get the save can you offer us that?
[18:14] [MasterZen] you have them already?
[18:15] [Goonie] Yes, we have them
[18:15] [MasterZen] good
[18:15] [MasterZen] how about this
[18:15] [Goonie] Yes we are pretty good
[18:16] [MasterZen] you send your techs unaccepted next turn
[18:16] [MasterZen] we send you back our map and MM ACCEPTED
[18:16] [Goonie] Ok.
[18:16] [MasterZen] then you gift us your map next turn
[18:16] [Goonie] I will post that in the Instructions
[18:17] [Goonie] Ok, good working with you once again
[18:17] [MasterZen] I will send you a written proposal ok?
[18:17] [Goonie] Ok.
[18:17] [MasterZen] with a date for the trade because we need to get GCA to trade us their map on the exact same turn for this to work
[18:18] [Goonie] Ok
[18:18] [MasterZen] great
[18:18] [MasterZen] i'll try and send the proposal tonight to one of your guys aight?
[18:18] [Goonie] Ok
[18:18] [Goonie] Perfect
[18:18] [Goonie] Thanks
[18:18] [Goonie] Bye
[18:18] [MasterZen] cool, np
[18:19] [Goonie] later
[18:19] [MasterZen] cya
[18:19] No such nick/channel
Session Close: Fri Jun 20 18:19:14 2003
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BTW, I also had a chat earlier with Lucky on ICQ in which he also accepted the map deal but I thought ICQ logged chats but apparently it doesn't...  (any ideas?)
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:34
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quote:
Lucky (11:38 AM) :
hi
Master Zen (11:38 AM) :
hey
Lucky (11:38 AM) :
I received your envoy, posting it for polling now
Master Zen (11:38 AM) :
ok good!
Lucky (11:38 AM) :
one question though
Lucky (11:38 AM) :
what about CDG?
Master Zen (11:38 AM) :
?
Master Zen (11:39 AM) :
we are not trading maps with them
Lucky (11:39 AM) :
well, do you intend to trade with them as well?
Master Zen (11:39 AM) :
we already have them mapped out
Lucky (11:39 AM) :
ok
Lucky (11:39 AM) :
could we add a paragraph about that into the treaty?
Master Zen (11:39 AM) :
oh sure, if you want
Master Zen (11:40 AM) :
send it back to me, and I'll approve it, we already went through all the debating so one little technicallity will be no problem for us IMO
Lucky (11:41 AM) :
- Concerning the fourth party on this continent, Elucidia, which might also take an active role in this situation of war, Apolyton refrains from trading maps with them as well for the duration of the war.
Lucky (11:41 AM) :
just added that paragraph
Lucky (11:41 AM) :
if you have any objections, or a better way to paraphrase it
Lucky (11:41 AM) :
tell me and Iīll change it
Master Zen (11:41 AM) :
nah, sounds good
Lucky (11:44 AM) :
well, 2 days vote, but it will probably get a majority or not within 1 day
Master Zen (11:44 AM) :
consider it approved from our side, just send it to me via e-mail for "archival" purposes once you guys approve it. Then we'll gift you them map hopefully the turn following
Lucky (11:45 AM) :
of course, we will also CC it to mongoose
Master Zen (11:45 AM) :
sure thing
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:34
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sent the following trade offer to CFC (Goonie, FortyJ, Octavian X) via PM on their server.
quote:
Apolyton and CFC agree to the following:
Apolyton has agreed to trade CFC Mapmaking for Horseback Riding to help advance our good friendship and the goodwill between our nations.
We wish to continue to trade technologies and advance the goodwill between us by agreeing to this future trade agreement.
Fanatikou hereby promises to research Construction and, upon completion, to offer Construction to Apolyton.
Apolyton promises to offer Code of Laws and Philosophy to Fanatikou immediately upon receiving the offer of Construction, and to accept.
Thus, Fanatikou and Apolyton hereby agree to trade Construction for Code of Laws + Philosophy as soon as these techs are aquired. Furthermore, both sides agree not to aquire these technologies from any other party.
signed by:
Togas, Foreign Affairs Minister of Apolyton
BigFree, Consul of Apolyton
__________, ____________ of Fanatikou
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--Togas
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WhiteBandit
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Southern California
Jul 2002
time: 21:34
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This guy is a moron and really taints my view of GCA. But in anycase... they didn't know about the war and now they do.
All times in Pacific
quote:
WhiteBandit (8:12 PM) :
hey!
WhiteBandit (8:12 PM) :
how are things going with CFC by the way? we haven't heard any news from either side in awhile
History Buff (8:13 PM) :
well, you know we are at war right? well, we thoiught they might be cheating, but they could have just had some lucky breaks. Its not helping them much though . . .
WhiteBandit (8:14 PM) :
yeah we know you guys are at war... the last we ever knew about it was when peace negotiations failed and Lucky steam rolled their city :P
WhiteBandit (8:16 PM) :
could i get you to join our IRC server?
History Buff (8:16 PM) :
actually, i cant, my mom's about to kick me off, sorry
WhiteBandit (8:17 PM) :
ok
WhiteBandit (8:17 PM) :
we just had a few things we wanted to talk to you guys about
WhiteBandit (8:18 PM) :
how are your relations going with CDG still?
History Buff (8:20 PM) :
well, i dont quite know for sure. They have stationed a large army on our borders, claiming it to be "defensive" although it must be a sizeable chunk of thir forces. Of course, with this whole "revolution" we cant quite be sure
WhiteBandit (8:21 PM) :
whoa! how many units??
WhiteBandit (8:24 PM) :
in the meantime, we have a luxurious cruise ship named "Princess of Apolyton" that is sailing along the high seas
WhiteBandit (8:25 PM) :
the letters they write home are fascinating, but we were wondering if we could negotiate a passage through your borders with the ship?
History Buff (8:26 PM) :
well, ill pass that along, and as for the CDG army, i wont give you an exact #, but its at least 4.
History Buff (8:26 PM) :
and i will be resigning my post, temporariyl anyway, as i will be going out of town on the twelvth.
WhiteBandit (8:27 PM) :
oh! okay, anyone i should contact regarding future communications?
WhiteBandit (8:30 PM) :
well regarding the situation with CDG, we opened up our turn and checked the random diplomacy stuff
WhiteBandit (8:30 PM) :
i'm afraid that the nations of CDG and GCA are now at war
History Buff (8:32 PM) :
whoa!
thats not cool.
History Buff (8:32 PM) :
As for my replacement, no word yet. You're actually the first person i told.
WhiteBandit (8:33 PM) :
hehe okay
WhiteBandit (8:33 PM) :
are you guys prepared? i know we've talked about this possibility for quite awhile now
WhiteBandit (8:33 PM) :
it's unfortunate that it came true
History Buff (8:37 PM) :
well, i gg2g, cya
WhiteBandit (8:38 PM) :
okay, see ya
(Message was sent. User is Offline.The message will be delivered when user goes Online.)
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WhiteBandit
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Southern California
Jul 2002
time: 21:34
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Chat with GCA regarding the war situation and CDG.
Actual chat log is posted here
Prior to this chat, I had a small chat with Lucky on ICQ. Here it is:
All times are Pacific
quote:
Lucky (8:50 AM) :
hi
WhiteBandit (8:50 AM) :
hey there
Lucky (8:58 AM) :
can you tell us what your official position to the unprovoked and unreasoned attack on us by CDG is?
WhiteBandit (9:00 AM) :
Apolyton does not look kindly on the attack of a neighbor and friend. However, do the the complexities of this war, we really cannot adopt an official stance, nor can we take sides. Apolyton wishes to remain a neutral party in this matter.
WhiteBandit (9:01 AM) :
do = due
Lucky (9:01 AM) :
we would like to have a chat with your people as soon as possible
WhiteBandit (9:01 AM) :
we'd definitely be willing to go for that
WhiteBandit (9:01 AM) :
togas isn't on yet, but i'll let him know as soon as he comes on
WhiteBandit (9:01 AM) :
what is your schedule today?
Lucky (9:02 AM) :
hmm, letīs say somewhen in the next 5 hours
WhiteBandit (9:02 AM) :
okay, that should be doable
Lucky (9:03 AM) :
foremost, if you ever intended to remove the threat that CDG was as you agreed as well, it would be time for that now
WhiteBandit (9:03 AM) :
was there war declared when you guys played the turn or is this a new development?
Lucky (9:03 AM) :
nope, no declaration, no message, no reason, no nothing
Lucky (9:03 AM) :
they just crossed the border and attacked our lone worker
WhiteBandit (9:03 AM) :
were you guys aware of the revolution thread on their forum?
Lucky (9:04 AM) :
well we do know they are in some form of turmoil, yes
WhiteBandit (9:04 AM) :
they talked of moving their immortals into "Our Goats..." for purposes of "putting down the rebellion"
Lucky (9:04 AM) :
well, they moved it further
WhiteBandit (9:04 AM) :
we thought this was suspicious, along witht he fact that they consistantly were taking 2 days to play their turns
Lucky (9:04 AM) :
yes
Lucky (9:05 AM) :
we were of course aware of that, and tried to arrange chats and talks and sent back messages
WhiteBandit (9:05 AM) :
i assume there was no response?
Lucky (9:05 AM) :
but the only person that ever answered was their foreign advisor, Louis XXIV
WhiteBandit (9:05 AM) :
that is usually what happens when we try to talk to them
Lucky (9:05 AM) :
yes, most messages were ignored
Lucky (9:06 AM) :
and in those that came back they kept assuring us that our strong friendship was fully intact and that there was no reason to fear their "small" revolution
WhiteBandit (9:06 AM) :
yeah, we learned early on to take whatever CDG says with a grain of salt
WhiteBandit (9:06 AM) :
surely you guys were prepared for an eventuallity right?
WhiteBandit (9:07 AM) :
our warnings weren't in vain?
Lucky (9:07 AM) :
well, the war with CFC is what we concentrated on
Lucky (9:07 AM) :
we of course knew of the threat
Lucky (9:08 AM) :
but it was simply impossible to redirect resources to that eventuality, save those from the city on the front
Lucky (9:08 AM) :
at least our citizens are happy now :S
Lucky (9:08 AM) :
WhiteBandit (9:08 AM) :
hehe
WhiteBandit (9:09 AM) :
if i may ask, what do you guys plan to do with your forward cities? from what we can deduce, it seems like it would be hard to defend them
Lucky (9:09 AM) :
they are yes
WhiteBandit (9:10 AM) :
do you guys plan to fight for them? or perhaps abandon them so as CDG does not get them?
Lucky (9:10 AM) :
we expect to lose one, but if they concentrate on that one first, we could try to make a stand in the other
WhiteBandit (9:11 AM) :
how is the war with CFC progressing?
Lucky (9:12 AM) :
well, pretty good I think
Lucky (9:12 AM) :
we might be in a position to make peace with them again soon if they want
Lucky (9:12 AM) :
a sidenote, did you get our map or not?
WhiteBandit (9:12 AM) :
we got the map
WhiteBandit (9:12 AM) :
thanks
Lucky (9:13 AM) :
ah, so my ambassador was just relaying older information
WhiteBandit (9:14 AM) :
did he relay the information about our galley?
Lucky (9:14 AM) :
emm, no
Lucky (9:15 AM) :
you want to pass our territory?
WhiteBandit (9:15 AM) :
ah, we commissioned a ship named "The Princess of Apolyton"...
WhiteBandit (9:15 AM) :
yes
WhiteBandit (9:15 AM) :
we're hoping we can work something out?
Lucky (9:15 AM) :
hmm
WhiteBandit (9:15 AM) :
since we have that clause about the 1 tile thing in our NAP
Lucky (9:15 AM) :
well, I guess you can understand that at the moment weīd really like to keep that NAP with at least you :S
WhiteBandit (9:16 AM) :
regarding CDG, did you guys have a peace treaty with them?
Lucky (9:16 AM) :
but Iīm sure we can work something out
Lucky (9:16 AM) :
of course, and a UN official NAP
Lucky (9:16 AM) :
we will contact mongoose about this asap
WhiteBandit (9:16 AM) :
we understand! we don't want to throw out the NAP at all. We are just hoping we can get an exception made for the Princess of Apolyton only and no other units
WhiteBandit (9:17 AM) :
definitely contact mongoose
Lucky (9:17 AM) :
we can work something out once we meet
WhiteBandit (9:17 AM) :
sounds good
Lucky (9:17 AM) :
also, you once said that you were seeing CDG as the threat it proves to be now as well
Lucky (9:17 AM) :
to both of us
Lucky (9:18 AM) :
we just want you to know that if you ever thought about attacking them at all, now is your time
Lucky (9:18 AM) :
most if not all their units are in our territory
WhiteBandit (9:18 AM) :
yes, we'll see what our people agree on
WhiteBandit (9:18 AM) :
how many units were at the border?
Lucky (9:18 AM) :
they are considerable weaker than both you and we are
Lucky (9:19 AM) :
at least 5 immortals and support units
WhiteBandit (9:19 AM) :
yeah we noticed that
WhiteBandit (9:19 AM) :
what units supporting if I may ask?
Lucky (9:19 AM) :
spearmen of course
WhiteBandit (9:19 AM) :
i wonder if they have initiated their golden age yet
Lucky (9:19 AM) :
they donīt have horses at least
WhiteBandit (9:19 AM) :
true
WhiteBandit (9:36 AM) :
togas is on, let me see if i can setup a chat
Lucky (9:36 AM) :
ok
WhiteBandit (9:37 AM) :
on apolyton's server: ./join #slackers GoodEaten
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:34
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Tech trade with CDG approved:
quote:
I, pesoloco of Elucidia, have signed and agreed to the following proposal:
Apolyton and Elucidia hereby agree to the following trade:
Apolyton promises to trade Code of Laws to Elucidia, Elucidia promises to trade Literature to Apolyton.
On the turn that Elucidia aquires Literature, Elucidia promises to offer it to Apolyton. Apolyton will, in return, offer Code of Laws and accept the trade. On Elucidia's following turn, the trade will be accepted and completed.
This agreement is not voided by either team aquiring the technology from another source.
Agreed to by:
BigFree, Consul of Apolyton
Togas, Minister of Foreign Affairs, Apolyton.
Pesoloco, President of Elucidia
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--Togas
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:34
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Lucky *****ing about our little barb stunt down south 
quote:
Lucky (4:37 PM) :
hi
Master Zen (4:39 PM) :
hey what's going on!
Lucky (4:40 PM) :
just a short question
Master Zen (4:40 PM) :
go ahead
Lucky (4:40 PM) :
did you land any units on the southern tip of our peninsula?
Lucky (4:41 PM) :
:s
Master Zen (4:41 PM) :
our galley was about to get attacked by barbs
Lucky (4:42 PM) :
as we warned you
Master Zen (4:42 PM) :
we unloaded our unit, yes, but he's back aboard, don't worry
Master Zen (4:42 PM) :
our galley survived fortunately
Lucky (4:42 PM) :
well, it seems you took the chance to take out our gold mine there
Lucky (4:42 PM) :
that is good
Master Zen (4:42 PM) :
gold mine?
Lucky (4:43 PM) :
the barb camp
Master Zen (4:43 PM) :
ah
Lucky (4:43 PM) :
we have indication that you took it out
Lucky (4:43 PM) :
depriving us of our 25 gold
Lucky (4:43 PM) :
after we asked you specifically to not to do that
Lucky (4:43 PM) :
as part of the agreement for passage
Master Zen (4:43 PM) :
it will regenerate... don't worry...
Master Zen (4:44 PM) :
Lucky (4:44 PM) :
yes, but trust is not built up that way :S
Lucky (4:45 PM) :
at least you could have told and asked us
Master Zen (4:45 PM) :
well, the drop was unexpected, we moved the galley away from the barb galleys and we couldn't pick up the unit, since the barb camp was besides, we took it out.
Master Zen (4:46 PM) :
if it had spawned a horseman it could have taken out our unit
Lucky (4:47 PM) :
I understand your actions and have no problems with them
Master Zen (4:47 PM) :
but like I said, our unit is back in and he won't land
Lucky (4:47 PM) :
but you are the ones always claiming that treaties and agreements with you can be trusted forever
Master Zen (4:47 PM) :
you know, we don't need to go around the continent to hunt for barbs, we have enough in our lands
Lucky (4:48 PM) :
yes, once again, this is not about you depriving us of 25 gold, surely not
Lucky (4:48 PM) :
it is about you "breaking" part of an agreement
Lucky (4:49 PM) :
paranoid as we learned to be, this does not help our relationship
Lucky (4:50 PM) :
informing us would have been a small problem, but appropriate gesture
Master Zen (4:50 PM) :
look, I understand your complaints
Lucky (4:51 PM) :
not really complaints, more like criticism
Master Zen (4:51 PM) :
but if anything, having given you HBR at a time you desperately needed it should be proof enough of our intentions
Lucky (4:52 PM) :
of course, we are not questioning our friendship, definitely not
Master Zen (4:52 PM) :
but you are questioning our trust
Lucky (4:53 PM) :
which you proudly claimed to be hard as stone (or some other metaphor )
Lucky (4:54 PM) :
it is a minor nuisance, not worth mentioning actually
Lucky (4:54 PM) :
werenīt it for the fact that we now made useless moves
Master Zen (4:55 PM) :
do you see any reason not to trust us?
Lucky (4:55 PM) :
we do not ask for something and we do not want this to be any big deal
Master Zen (4:56 PM) :
because frankly this little incident, as you say, is not worth the trouble of arguing over.
Lucky (4:56 PM) :
your extremely high mobilization for example
Master Zen (4:56 PM) :
our teams' trust has manifested in many ways
Master Zen (4:57 PM) :
we warned you about CDG since months before remember? we informed you of what we saw in their capital when we put the embassy, etc.
Lucky (4:57 PM) :
I just wanted to mention this, I didnīt want to argue over it
Master Zen (4:57 PM) :
ok, it's alright with me, don't worry
Lucky (4:58 PM) :
we are grateful for all you have done, but as you know now, it was actually you that was their primary target for a long time
Master Zen (4:58 PM) :
and our high mobilization is believe me, a result of a fear of that happening from waaay back
Master Zen (4:59 PM) :
hence our mercs
Lucky (4:59 PM) :
but it is worrysome that a nation at peace, with the only direct neighbor embroiled in a war with the next closest neighbor, has the highest mobilization of all :S
Master Zen (5:00 PM) :
it's all the insurance we need if those Immortals had gone the other way
Lucky (5:00 PM) :
yes
Lucky (5:00 PM) :
weīll stay paranoid though
Master Zen (5:01 PM) :
hehehe
Lucky (5:01 PM) :
and please donīt let anything like this happen again, at least not without informing us of your intentions
Master Zen (5:01 PM) :
carthage is by nature a builder civ, not a warmonger one. Good defensive unit makes you think twice about attacking
Master Zen (5:02 PM) :
it won't happen, no barbs in sight...
Lucky (5:02 PM) :
but remember, there is another barb galley out there
Lucky (5:02 PM) :
at least we think so
Master Zen (5:02 PM) :
well, we'll see...
Lucky (5:03 PM) :
found anything interesting yet?
Master Zen (5:03 PM) :
not really
Master Zen (5:03 PM) :
how's the war going for you?
Lucky (5:03 PM) :
well, letīs hope the other continent is embroiled in war as well, or theyīll get too far ahead
Master Zen (5:03 PM) :
yeah, hopefully
Lucky (5:04 PM) :
with CFC nothing much is happening
Lucky (5:04 PM) :
we are trying to secure the mountain range we wanted
Lucky (5:04 PM) :
and with CDG, it is going slowly, ever so slowly
Lucky (5:04 PM) :
but immortals are not immortal we learned
Master Zen (5:04 PM) :
pretty hard to fight a 2-front war. But still, taking out a CDG city was pretty amazing
Lucky (5:04 PM) :
keeping it was even better
Master Zen (5:04 PM) :
renaming it was the best though
Lucky (5:05 PM) :
we donīt raze civilian cities like other certain civs do
Lucky (5:05 PM) :
yep
Lucky (5:05 PM) :
too bad that Are didnīt fit anymore
Lucky (5:05 PM) :
well, they stole and killed all our chicken, so we stole their goats
Lucky (5:06 PM) :
but between you and me
Lucky (5:06 PM) :
our chickens tasted better
Master Zen (5:06 PM) :
yeah, goats don't seem to tasty
Master Zen (5:07 PM) :
speaking of tasty, I'm going to eat, anything else on your mind?
Lucky (5:08 PM) :
nope ... wait
Lucky (5:08 PM) :
actually yes
Master Zen (5:08 PM) :
ok
Lucky (5:08 PM) :
did you check with the dates again?
Lucky (5:08 PM) :
we count our new NAP starting next turn
Master Zen (5:09 PM) :
don't worry, we'll count it from there too
Lucky (5:10 PM) :
ok, itīs for the historical accuracy of our history and timelines
Master Zen (5:10 PM) :
no problem with us
Lucky (5:10 PM) :
ok, good appetite for you
Master Zen (5:11 PM) :
thanks
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:34
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July 18 chats. Posted on MZO. Copied here for those who have not seen them. Things like this really need to be here. Not everyone chats, and not everyone goes to MZO.
Togas with GCA soda.
quote:
Togas> are you involved with GC's intersite team?
_Soda> somehow
Togas> I'm in charge of the Foreign Affairs for Poly's team.
Togas> Are you free to talk about the game?
_Soda> hmmm, kind of yes... I'm supposed to be appointed as poly ambassador soon
enough
Togas> if so, you're very lucky ... we have the best FA team arounrd
Togas> we like the chat it up
_Soda>
_Soda> yeah I talked to trip a bit yesterday... had fun
Togas> I just wanted to get some thoughts from you guys. Right now our team is
debating getting involved in your war.
_Soda> which one?
Togas> with CDG
Togas> we can't do anything about CFC, as you know
Togas> CDG has us trapped in the corner of the map
_Soda> hmmmm well... CDG's campaign is doing great...
Togas> What I'd like to know is how you guys would feel about us getting
involved.
_Soda> well... AFAIK we don't really need help... since we already took 2 of
their cities, and are getting closer to their capital
Togas> would you guys be happy to see us involved, or would you be angry?
_Soda> angry??? certainly not... happy I don't know... we'd probably have to
poll... IMHO, you have to attack... not to help us, but to help yourself... since
CDG blocks you from the rest of the world... but as far as we are concerned, it
doesn't matter much anymore...
Togas> you're right
Togas> That's a big part of our thinking ... we want to get out of our corner
_Soda> your help would surely have been appreciated when we were getting
invaded, since it suprised us to see them attacking... but now, we're about to
conquer most of what's important to them..
_Soda> anyway, CDG is not dangerous... our most dangerous threat is CFC
_Soda> and when they get riders...
Togas> if we do get involved, we'd have to meet with you guys and work out how
to divide up the CDG land.
Togas> make new borders and all that.
_Soda> ok... well, I'll make a poll and see what people think of this... they
are probably going to agree though, as you have been our most trustable friend so
far
Togas>
_Soda> so... this is a formal offer for a military alliance against CDG?
Togas> not yet. Our forum is down
Togas> Yesterday it was being debated
_Soda> ok... but we can expect such an offer soon?
Togas> when it comes back up, hopefully we'll get an answer
_Soda> ok
_Soda> well, I'm pretty sure if a vote is held to fight CDG, the result will be
positive, as you don't really have choice... if you want to be able to gain some
power that is
Togas> we'll contact you guys as soon as we figure out what we want to do
_Soda> just to know... hmm what's your position exactly at poly?
_Soda> since in the poll, it would be nice to precise who you are exactly
Togas> I believe it's in the best interest of Poly to make a move on CDG, but
I'm worried about what that might mean to our neighbors.
Togas> We don't want to anger our neighbors or make them nervous.
_Soda> hmm, I meant, what's your position in the chain of command in poly's team
Togas> AHHHH
Togas> I'm the Foreign Affairs Minister
Togas> my job is to advise the Consuls on all matters regarding foreign affairs
Togas> and to carry out all diplomatic duties .... as well as manage the
ambassadors.
Togas> At Poly we have elected Consuls who make the decisions and poll the
people (Senate) on all major decisions.
_Soda> thank ye.. I'll poll to see what everyone's opinion about this is... IMO,
they probably won't say "Yes we need poly's help", but they won't be angry about
you finishing off people that attacked us without warnings and destroyed a city
of ours
Togas> good to hear that. |
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16-06-2003 23:16
, what do they know about our land , ..... 
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