21-06-2003 06:57									#481
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Wha had the biggest missile? Who had the biggest nuke?

That's because you couldn't do the same job with less. We didn't build Energia because we didn't need Energia. The reason our nukes were smaller is because we rely on acuracy. If you can hit your target, you don't need to blow up the entire province to get it.

After 1960, Soviet space technology began to lag behind the West. In some area, the Soviets were the most advanced in the world, in many areas of theoretical physics, chemistry, biology, etc. MiG-29 and Su-27(?) are among the best fighter craft in the world, rivaling the best American fighters. Why make up **** to be proud of when there is real stuff to be proud of?

	21-06-2003 06:58									#482
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Ok. USSR.

What?

quote: USSR. 2:1 Have a nice day.

Right, when I think Soviet UNion, I think "High quality drugs and non-political doctors!"

	21-06-2003 07:00									#483
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx 1st probe to another planet - US

Actually, the Soviets landed the first probe on another body, the Moon. The Soviets were also the first to land a probe on another planet, Venus.

quote: 1st Lunar Landing - US

See above, although I expect you meant 1st manned Lunar landing.

	21-06-2003 07:00									#484
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Hey, I read the same article you posted. It says, and I quote:
It does not include people who, unable to find work, have set themselves up in their own businesses. No kidding! Perhaps it's because, having set themselves up in business, they're not unemployed! Shocking, I know.

	21-06-2003 07:02									#485
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Hey, I read the same article you posted. It says, and I quote:

And you ignored the numbers to suit your own agenda.

	21-06-2003 07:07									#486
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Didn't ignore them at all. Employed is employed. People working from home are employed. You agree. No biggie there.

People who have work (part time or not) and want a better job are employed. Use the term underemployed if it makes you sleep better.

I WANT to be making double my salary too! Guess I"m "underemployed" Better adjust that statistic....

-=Vel=-

	21-06-2003 07:09									#487
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Fair 'nuff....Russia beat us to Venus....that still puts the US out front. Not bad given the Russian head start....amazing, considering all the wonderous technological superiority of the former Soviet Union, eh?

-=Vel=-

	21-06-2003 07:09									#488
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Che, Communists are bad; see my sig for details.

But your last few posts have been completely correct.

	21-06-2003 07:12									#489
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Personally, I think the reason they use the numbers we know and love rather than the ones che seems to prefer is becuase the more familiar numbers are based on more evidence rather than conjecture.

	21-06-2003 07:14									#490
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Hey....I'll bet if we came up with a broad enough definition, we could get the number even higher!

* but if you count the number of college students who will be graduating in the next four years, the unemployment number increases to 16%

* and if you count the number of people who are employed, but don't really like their jobs, the unemployment number increases to 22%

Man....such fun! What else can we add!?

-=Vel=-

EDIT: Actually, I think that since the US touts itself as being a capitalist-oriented economy, we should count all the folks employed by the government as being "unemployed" too! That'd get it up over 25%, surely!

	21-06-2003 07:16									#491
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Oh goody! Yes! Let's whip 'em out and compare, shall we? Space, he says: 1st Satellite - Russia 1st Spaceman - Russia 1st probe to another planet - US 1st semi-permanent space station - US 1st Lunar Landing - US 1st Orbiting telescope - US 1st Reusable spacecraft - US -=Vel=-

quote: 1st Satellite - Russia

Correct.

quote: 1st Spaceman - Russia

Correct.

quote: 1st probe to another planet - US

Incorrect.
I don't know about which planet your are talking about, but Russians launched interplanetary probes to the Moon, Mars and Venus earlier than anyone else.

quote: 1st semi-permanent space station - US

Incorrect.
Soviet "Salut" was first space station. Not to mention that you never had station like "Mir".

quote: 1st Lunar Landing - US

Correct.

quote: 1st Orbiting telescope - US

Correct.

quote: 1st Reusable spacecraft - US

Soviets had workable prototype of reusable spacecraft in 60's, but abondoned the idea because of its ineffectivneses or because of Khrushev's stupiduty.
Next:
First human in open space- USSR.
First women in space- USSR.
The record for the longest space flight of a single cosmonaut (over 400 days) - USSR.
Your turn.

	21-06-2003 07:21									#492
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Serb, in America we have a saying; "It doesn't matter where you were when the race started, it matters where you are when it ends.

30+ years later, America has have a dozen moon landings, USSR/Russia= 0

Ka-ching!

	21-06-2003 07:22									#493
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Personally, I think the reason they use the numbers we know and love rather than the ones che seems to prefer is becuase the more familiar numbers are based on more evidence rather than conjecture.

What part of the government publishes another set of statistics don't you people understand. I'm not the one inventing this number, the Fed's are.

	21-06-2003 07:23									#494
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Serb, in America we have a saying; "It doesn't matter where you were when the race started, it matters where you are when it ends. 30+ years later, America has have a dozen moon landings, USSR/Russia= 0 Ka-ching!

Well, let's be real for a second here. The prurpose of the moon race was to develop better ICBM technology. As both sides still have the capacity to annihilate one another and the rest of the human species and 99% of the rest of the biosphere, nobody's winning that race. In nuclear war, there are only losers.

	21-06-2003 07:24									#495
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What part of the government publishes another set of statistics don't you people understand.

What part of I think the number is specious regardless of its source goes over your head?

	21-06-2003 07:28									#496
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Now, research is mostly funded by voluntary contributions of capital. I can invest in it if I want, or I can choose not to. Under your system, there would need to be a conscious decision to the effect that you're going to take X resources from the standard of living of everyone, to fund this undirected, unpredictable, and probably (in most projects) pointless effort by these bourgeoise intelligentsia types. So first, how much do you **** over the common working man to pay these researchers and for what projects? Second, do you go for high talent scientists and support people (who include people like me you'd deem subservice, dangerous, and who have nothing but contempt for your system), or do you go for mediocre scientists who are party hacks? The USSR also splendidly illustrated how to screw up that issue.

I think you might not understand that when capital is used in the current system to fund scientific research that that uses resources that could otherwise be used to produce other goods and services.

edit: Ok, now I see what you're asking. The funding can be determined similar to the way government funding is determined now.

	21-06-2003 07:29									#497
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Strange that in almost 500 posts I have not seen a word from either side even mentioning 'quality of life', sad thing if you ask me.
Does technology have to move forward as fast as it does today?* People were able to live and get by before cellphones (and other stuff).
Isn't that the most important bit, what you (whatever form of goverment it is or how you want to call it) do for the people?

* medical advance perhaps being the exception.

	21-06-2003 07:30									#498
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Well, let's be real for a second here. The prurpose of the moon race was to develop better ICBM technology. As both sides still have the capacity to annihilate one another and the rest of the human species and 99% of the rest of the biosphere, nobody's winning that race. In nuclear war, there are only losers.

A Saturn V is completely unnessecary for an ICBM. In addition, Kennedy had already informed NASA before the Bay Of Pigs to begin actively devolping a moon program.

If you're looking for a military related space program, think "Dyna-Soar", which would have devolped the same "ICBM" tech (which already was devolped) and been more military oriented.

	21-06-2003 07:30									#499
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Serb, in America we have a saying; "It doesn't matter where you were when the race started, it matters where you are when it ends.

Exactly. When space race was started USA had economic unharmed by WW2, while Soviet Union laid in ruins after nazi invasion. USA took best German rocket scientists. Who was the father of American cosmonautic? Von Braun, if I remember correctly. Who was the father of Soviet cosmonautics? Sergei Korolev. Despite that USA was in preferable condiitions, Soviets still were able to kick your asses and launched first satellite and first spaceman.

quote: 30+ years later, America has have a dozen moon landings, USSR/Russia= 0

I thought that there were only six manned landings. And btw, why do you think we should send people to the Moon? What for? To gain samples? In 1970 Soviet probe 'Luna 16' automaticly returned samples to Earth.

	21-06-2003 07:33									#500
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar A Saturn V is completely unnessecary for an ICBM. In addition, Kennedy had already informed NASA before the Bay Of Pigs to begin actively devolping a moon program.

You don't think the guidance technology developed to put people on the Moon has a practical application in planting a bomb in Red Square?

	21-06-2003 07:34									#501
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quote: Originally posted by Serb I thought that there were only six manned landings.

I meant "Half a dozen", sorry.

quote: And btw, why do you think we should send people to the Moon?

Because it's there. The same reason why we must ultimately send men to Mars. That and Martian explorers can do much more stuff than robots.

quote: What for? To gain samples? In 1970 Soviet probe 'Luna 16' automaticly returned samples to Earth.

Too bad the Soviet probe program has a worse track record than NASA's.

	21-06-2003 07:35									#502
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1st probe to reach Venus- Mariner 2, in 1962.

1st and only probe mission to Mercury- triple fly-by accomplished by Mariner 10 in 1974-75.

1st probe mission to Jupiter- Pioneer 10, launched in 1972.

1st probe to visit Saturn- Pioneer 11, in 1979.

1st probe to reach Uranus- Voyager 2, 1986.

1st probe to reach Neptune- Voyager 2, 1989.

1st successful rendezvous in space- Gemini 6 & 7

And, to give a nod to the Russians, the longest space flight was WELL in excess of 400 days:

Valery Polyakov - 679 days

We could go back and forth like this all day tho....and to what end? There IS no USSR any longer, true? A failed communist experiment?

-=Vel=-

	21-06-2003 07:35									#503
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Too bad the Soviet probe program has a worse track record than NASA's.

I don't think soo.

	21-06-2003 07:36									#504
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quote: Originally posted by Serb I thought that there were only six manned landings. And btw, why do you think we should send people to the Moon?

It's a typo. He meant half a dozen.

And you were trying to send people to the moon, so don't act like you were trying to develop a better way. The reason we beat you is because your rockets kept exploding and killing your cosmonauts.

Like I said, be proud of what's real, because the USSR had some great ones. But when you boast of stuff that isn't true, you pull the rug out from underneath the real accomplishments.

	21-06-2003 07:37									#505
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You don't think the guidance technology developed to put people on the Moon has a practical application in planting a bomb in Red Square?

Guidence technology was already there with evolving electronics. By the end of the '60s there were guided missiles and bombs that certainly had no basis in the Apollo program.

I will, however, concede that the Apollo program was also a good stunt to crow over the USSR with.

	21-06-2003 07:37									#506
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx 1st probe to reach Venus- Mariner 2, in 1962.

Yeah, but it didn't land there.

	21-06-2003 08:22									#507
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Wow, 506 posts and counting.

	21-06-2003 08:24									#508
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No, they made a new thread, Oerdin .

	21-06-2003 08:29									#509
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He's from california, hours behind and all of that.....

ACK!

	21-06-2003 08:33									#510
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx 1st probe to reach Venus- Mariner 2, in 1962.

It didn't land on surface.
Soviet 'Venera-7' Was the first probe to return data from the surface of another planet. (1970)
And Soviet 'Venera-9' was the first spacecraft to land on the surface of another planet. (landed on Venus in 1975 and made pictures of surface).

quote: 1st and only probe mission to Mercury- triple fly-by accomplished by Mariner 10 in 1974-75. 1st probe mission to Jupiter- Pioneer 10, launched in 1972. 1st probe to visit Saturn- Pioneer 11, in 1979. 1st probe to reach Uranus- Voyager 2, 1986. 1st probe to reach Neptune- Voyager 2, 1989.

True.

quote: 1st successful rendezvous in space- Gemini 6 & 7

World first automatic docking and undocking of unmanned spacecraft ( Cosmos - 186 - Cosmos -188). (Russian backwardness in electronics, my ass )

quote: And, to give a nod to the Russians, the longest space flight was WELL in excess of 400 days:Valery Polyakov - 679 days

Poor guy. Almost two years in space. I feel pity for his family.

quote: We could go back and forth like this all day tho....and to what end? There IS no USSR any longer, true?

Yeah, let's stop it. The truth is that both sides made great achievments in space exploration and did a great service to entire humanity.

quote: A failed communist experiment?

Nope. The betrayal of Soviet leadership.