17-06-2003 08:03									#1
	Babylon and on - the new capitalism/communism thread Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Figured now that the other one had reached the magic 500 number, we might want a new one to continue our pointless arguing back and forth that's not gonna convince either side....

-=Vel=-

	17-06-2003 08:10									#2
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ARRRGGGGHHHH!

	17-06-2003 08:11									#3
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....and who knows, maybe THIS time our Comrades in arms can put their heads together and decide on a cohesive argument.

We get Kiddero spouting stuff about how everything has to always be exactly equal, drawing a deep breath and then saying how pay should be based on ability and effort, just not as widely spaced as it is now (which is a paradox, in case you were fishing for the word), we get Che....God love him, quoting from tired, hundred year old theory like it's this morning's news, when the truth is that it's about as out of touch with a modern economy as thinking the moon is made of cheese, and we get GePap asking questions like: "Why is theivery bad?"

Stay tuned....I'm sure the next round will be equally thrilling. Perhaps we'll even be treated to some explanation from the reds about how what they're touting is any different from the dismal failures we've seen historically. Even better, perhaps they'll be able to put a "kinder, gentler" spin on the whole Gulag thing....THAT would really be something!



-=Vel=-

	17-06-2003 08:13									#4
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I like Democracy

	17-06-2003 08:13									#5
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat ARRRGGGGHHHH!

Case closed. MtG wins.

	17-06-2003 08:15									#6
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Glutton for punishment are we?

	17-06-2003 08:15									#7
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Awwww, c'mon DD....'poly OT wouldn't be the same without at least one Capitalism/Communist thread running....

-=Vel=-

EDIT to John: Yessir....reporting for duty with the Capitalism Brigade!

	17-06-2003 08:36									#8
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quote: God love him, quoting from tired, hundred year old theory like it's this morning's news

There are theories older then a 100 years that we thought were cr*p, yet so seem to be true/real.
And many more that still stand.
-
I wouldn't say communism was the greatest thing ever, by far, but,
Capitalism has had a long time to evolve, while communism was sort of thrown upon people and didn't have time to balance off (if possible).
To put it in gaming terms;
Capitalism : old game where most things have been fine-tuned ( yeah right )
Communism : alfa realease where some units where way too strong and overpowering.

	17-06-2003 08:37									#9
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To get the ball rolling good, here's a couple of questions for the communist crowd:

1) What's up with the whole "group before individual" thing? Sounds like it's a wierd cross between an ant farm and the borg collective to me. Are you guys aware that societies exist to serve those in them, and not the other way around? Why should we switch that, and make individuals exist to serve the state (or "common good" or "whole group" which are some other phrasings I've heard from your camp). Why is that superior to letting folks be....folks?

2) How will you prevent a dictatorial a$$ from siezing power when the "glorious revolution" comes. Isn't that what's happened in every other communist experiment that's been tried. So, if you're going to try it again, what will you do differently to ensure that it doesn't happen? Or, do you not really care that it'll happen?

3) Are the party bosses in the new communist regieme gonna have all the perks they had in the old one? If so, isn't that just a shade umm....contradictory. Workin' man's party and all that?

I'm genuinely curious, although I don't see you guys changing my mind on it, I do love the debate!

-=Vel=-

Last edited by Velociryx on 17-06-2003 at 08:44

	17-06-2003 08:40									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx we get Che....God love him, quoting from tired, hundred year old theory like it's this morning's news

So how old is the foundation of capitalism?

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Stay tuned....I'm sure the next round will be equally thrilling. Perhaps we'll even be treated to some explanation from the reds about how what they're touting is any different from the dismal failures we've seen historically.

Hasty generalisation. How many instances of capitalism were there and how many were failures?

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Even better, perhaps they'll be able to put a "kinder, gentler" spin on the whole Gulag thing....THAT would really be something!

Red herring.

Communism isn't a political system.

	17-06-2003 08:40									#11
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Alva, what you say is true, I agree. We to this day study philosophers whose works are thousands of years old.

The thing is though, economic theories have to be a good deal more nimble than philophisies on the nature of man. We haven't really changed all that much in a thousand years. We eat better and build fancier stuff, but if you strip all that away, we're not a whole lot different than we were. Sure, our luxuries have given us more time for contemplation, and there are some new things to think about (human rights being a relatively new concept), but the economy has totally transformed itself in the past hundred years. We have not.

-=Vel=-

	17-06-2003 08:41									#12
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So....no real responses from UR then? just the usual cut/paste one liner job? Figured as much....

-=Vel=-

	17-06-2003 08:46									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Communism isn't a political system.

ummm... yes it is... duh

SOCIALISM is the thing that isn't a political system. It is an economic system.

COMMUNISM (by definition) is a political system that integrates the socialist economic system into an authoritation political system.

Anarcho-socialism is the leftist version of Libertarianism (it is anti-authoritarian, for lack of a better word)

	17-06-2003 08:48									#14
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you are wrong about Communism skywalker... read Marx to find out what Communism is

	17-06-2003 08:49									#15
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Personally I think it'd be refreshing for the reds to outline a little more clearly what it is they believe and what they hope to accomplish when their "revolution" comes. In our last episode, everyone who claimed to be "red" seemed to have a different set of beliefs, while those arguing in favor of capitalism were all pretty well on the same page.

It's tough to make a convincing argument when all your soldiers are marching to a different beat, no?

-=Vel=-

	17-06-2003 08:49									#16
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Communism
a. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
b. The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.

from dictionary.com

Thus, an authoritarian government implementing socialist economic policies.

	17-06-2003 08:50									#17
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I'd be against any sort of "revolution" that didn't encompass the values of Democracy set forth in the Constitution.

	17-06-2003 08:50									#18
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quote: Sure, our luxuries have given us more time for contemplation

Not to threadjack, but and I'm not sure which one it was, but homo alongwhileagous needed 8 hours a week !! to make sure he could eat, have a roof over his head etc.
Ok, he didn't have 154864 channels and no remote , but it does makes you think (well, me at least )
Just count how many hours a day it takes you.
That does tell me that there is something wrong with capitalism. ( there are other reasons too)

	17-06-2003 08:51									#19
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Tsk, tsk, young Skywalker! Don't you know that you're not allowed to use the *actual* definitions of words here! That's just not acceptable! I'm sure there will be tons of the party faithful along shortly to tell you why! The HORROR! What have you done?!

-=Vel=-
(good job, btw )

	17-06-2003 08:54									#20
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Homo Alongwhileagous! I love it! And yes, in our modern world it sadly takes us at least 40 hours a week.... Not sure who's bright idea the 40-hour work week was, but I don't think that's a uniquely capitalist idea. Might be....I honestly don't know.

-=Vel=-

	17-06-2003 08:55									#21
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker ummm... yes it is... duh SOCIALISM is the thing that isn't a political system. It is an economic system. COMMUNISM (by definition) is a political system that integrates the socialist economic system into an authoritation political system. Anarcho-socialism is the leftist version of Libertarianism (it is anti-authoritarian, for lack of a better word)

I am amazed at this constant misrepresentation of communism as entailing political authoritarianism. Perhaps to the extent that a communal, non-private property system is enforced. But I would point out that the 5th Amendment to the US constitution likewise may take the private property out of the democratic decision process. Does that mean the US is authoritarian?

Communism is about ending the alienation between labor (and skill) and capital as a token for distributing scarce resource. Capitalists who seem to think communism entails tossing Eminem in a Gulag and conscription into a new Red Army are attacking a strawman of communism.

	17-06-2003 08:56									#22
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I prefer some economic "ism" thats gonna come in 2296AD

too bad I have no idea how it works, but I hear its far more superior to this "capitalism" ive been hearing alot about.

	17-06-2003 08:56									#23
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Templar:

Communism requires STATE control of all industry, etc. Therefore it is authoritarian (as it controls everything).

EDIT: Note that "authoritarian" doesn't mean "gulag" or even "undemocratic" (in the sense of no elections). It just means total state control.

	17-06-2003 08:57									#24
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Okay, Templar....I'll bite. Tell me WHY it's attacking a strawman. We have seen communism in action in a variety of places around the world, first and most notably in Russia.

And in that communist experiment, isn't that *exactly* what occured? Kill those in opposition to the party, round up the dissidents and send them off someplace remote.

Why would the new dog and pony show shake out differently??

-=Vel=-

	17-06-2003 08:58									#25
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Templar: Communism requires STATE control of all industry, etc. Therefore it is authoritarian (as it controls everything). EDIT: Note that "authoritarian" doesn't mean "gulag" or even "undemocratic" (in the sense of no elections). It just means total state control.

In communism, the state doesn't exist... the public has control over production

	17-06-2003 08:59									#26
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Templar: Communism requires STATE control of all industry, etc. Therefore it is authoritarian (as it controls everything).

That sounds more fascist.

	17-06-2003 08:59									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Homo Alongwhileagous! I love it! And yes, in our modern world it sadly takes us at least 40 hours a week.... Not sure who's bright idea the 40-hour work week was, but I don't think that's a uniquely capitalist idea. Might be....I honestly don't know. -=Vel=-

No, the 40 hr week was brought to you by the union. That's right! The labor movement. Prior to that, capitalists basically said work as long as we say or we'll fire you and hire some poor slob who will work the hours we want.

So why is it capitalists are so down on unions? Why is it any time the workers try to equalize bargaining power capitalists complain? Why do you think labor should only be allowed to deal with corporations one at a time? How come the much vaunted freedom to contract never applies to unions, only corporations? Hypocrites!

	17-06-2003 08:59									#28
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On paper, Sava. But point out a historical or presently functioning example of communism where that is actually the case.

-=Vel=-

	17-06-2003 09:00									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Zero That sounds more fascist.

That IS fascism... except that fascism also includes a right-wing economic policy.

It's the 2-dimensional political graph.

	17-06-2003 09:01									#30
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quote: On paper, Sava. But point out a historical or presently functioning example of communism where that is actually the case. -=Vel=-

That's exactly my point, communism has not yet existed. I just wish people would know what they are talking about when they bash something. The Soviet Union sucked ass. But it wasn't Communism. And I'm not saying Communism is good or it would work. Personally, I think it fails to take into account the criminal element, that's why attempts to get it to work have failed.

skywalker: fascism, and the style of government the Soviet Union had, were very, very similar. High ranking Nazi party members controlled the means on production in Germany.... high ranking "communist" party members in the Soviet Union controlled the means of production in Germany. It's the same thing with different names.