17-06-2003 21:45									#31
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Why is the media to blame for people assuming things they never reported?

	17-06-2003 21:49									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why is the media to blame for people assuming things they never reported?

By implicity.

	17-06-2003 21:52									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch By implicity.

Let me rephrase the question. How was the media implicitly saying that Iraqis were among the 9/11 hijackers and how have they implictly said that WMD have been found in Iraq when they have been reporting otherwise?

	17-06-2003 21:53									#34
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Conservatives complain when liberals accuse the media of being biased towards conservatives.

And liberals complain when conservatives accuse the media of being biased towards liberals.

This just keeps going around in a senseless circle.

	17-06-2003 21:57									#35
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that's because it's a lot easier to see the bias going the other way when a) you're looking for it, b) they're not saying what you want to hear, and c) one doesn't go to many different news organizations.

	17-06-2003 22:58									#36
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Let me rephrase the question. How was the media implicitly saying that Iraqis were among the 9/11 hijackers and how have they implictly said that WMD have been found in Iraq when they have been reporting otherwise?

The US government and media was for a long time following the line that Saddam Hussein's Iraq had connections with Al Quada. Al Quada was responsible for the attacks and so implicitly was Iraq. Without correcting the public by giving as much airtime or print space to the fact that no such links have been proven and that no Iraqi's took part, is it really that surprising that people think that Iraqi's were on the plane?

Regards WMD, having many news organisations say that weapons will be found, then having possible WMD sites being made headline news you get the impression that the weapons exist. If you don't later correct by prominently saying that the suspected sites were not WMD sites then you will leave people with the impression that they were WMD.


Who and how many media organisations are guilty of this I don't know, I don't pay attention to the US media that much. I will say that whenever I watch FOX news it doesn't surprise me that people believe Iraq had WMD or that they were responsible in part for 9/11.

	17-06-2003 23:31									#37
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The other topic that the media doesn't discuss is how much aid the previous Bush and Reagan administrations gave to Saddam. As I pointed out in another thread, Bush I was giving Saddam aid up until the day before Saddam invaded Kuwait. Saddam's WMD capabilities are from the US. The helicopters used in the Kurd gassing attacks are from the US. I think if the public new the truth about Saddam, Americans might demand accountability for past and current foreign policy and intelligence mistakes.

	18-06-2003 00:09									#38
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I have found no "actual evidence" we ever gave WMD or intelligence to producde WMD to Iraq and I defy anybody to find the evidence. But, I also believe we did give them the ability to create bio/chem to fight Iran, leveling the playing field if you will. I don't agree with it, but I am sure we saw Iraq the lesser of two evils at that time, but down the road we seem to always fight the weapons we sell. It is one thing to give the intelligence to produce the weapons, it is another thing for that country to use them as Iraq did against its own citizens.
If you want to hold the past US Presidents responsible for arming Iraq with WMD, then shouldn't we hold France, Russia, North Korea for selling intelligence that allows countries like Iran and Iraq to have and build weapons grade nuclear facilities???????
See Sava, this is the major league in politics and either you are one of the heavy hitters like Bush and rule the game or you are a bat boy in the farm league like yourself. The best thing you can do is stay our of their way, your life will be better off.

Last edited by Defiant on 18-06-2003 at 00:30

	18-06-2003 02:49									#39
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quote: My point, is rather, about how the media has completely failed to inform the American public.

Obviously someone hasn't been reading . I believe the last 3 issues of Time Magazine have been hammering the administration on WMD.

quote: The other topic that the media doesn't discuss is how much aid the previous Bush and Reagan administrations gave to Saddam.

Then why do so many people bring up the fact that the US supplied Saddam . Someone had to tell them, and I'm betting it was from the media.

	18-06-2003 03:11									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Obviously someone hasn't been reading . I believe the last 3 issues of Time Magazine have been hammering the administration on WMD.

It's things like this that make me think che doesn't know what he's talking about.

	18-06-2003 05:18									#41
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THINK? Or 'know'?

	18-06-2003 06:14									#42
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quote: If you want to hold the past US Presidents responsible for arming Iraq with WMD, then shouldn't we hold France, Russia, North Korea for selling intelligence that allows countries like Iran and Iraq to have and build weapons grade nuclear facilities???????

defiant, what about our other "allies"?

france's nuclear secrets came from the us.
north korea's came from pakistan, south korea, japan, and the us (although the latter three only taught them how to build non-weapons capable reactors).
afghanistan's mujahideen warriors were funded by america to fight those damned pesky soviets.
iran fell under the sway of islamic fundamentalists because we supported the shah, became increasingly autocratic and began turning the people against him.

quote: See Sava, this is the major league in politics and either you are one of the heavy hitters like Bush and rule the game or you are a bat boy in the farm league like yourself. The best thing you can do is stay our of their way, your life will be better off.

why is he in the farm leagues? because he disagrees with your/bush's opinions?

	18-06-2003 06:23									#43
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quote: afghanistan's mujahideen warriors were funded by america to fight those damned pesky soviets.

You realize the muhejadeen are the guys we are still backing? They were commonly refered to as the 'Northern Alliance' before the war in Afghanistan.

	18-06-2003 08:55									#44
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quote: I have found no "actual evidence" we ever gave WMD or intelligence to producde WMD to Iraq and I defy anybody to find the evidence.

Here you go then Defiant... educate yourself so you can "play in the major leagues".
http://www.casi.org.uk/info/usdocs/usiraq80s90s.html

This is a website that has detailed the US and Iraq relationship in the 80's and 90's. They provide sources such as: Official US Documents, The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Financial Times, The Associated Press, The New Yorker, and several independent authors.

quote: If you want to hold the past US Presidents responsible for arming Iraq with WMD, then shouldn't we hold France, Russia, North Korea for selling intelligence that allows countries like Iran and Iraq to have and build weapons grade nuclear facilities???????

Let's clean up our own house first.

quote: See Sava, this is the major league in politics and either you are one of the heavy hitters like Bush and rule the game or you are a bat boy in the farm league like yourself. The best thing you can do is stay our of their way, your life will be better off.

Sorry, your condescending threats won't convince me. This is America, although our Democracy has been hijacked, I still believe that our country will progress until true representative equality is achieved. Nobody will shut me up, and I will continue to attack the enemies of Democracy, Freedom, and Peace. This bridges all political lines. Conservatives were lied to as well. The smart ones are starting to see this. The media is starting to see this. And although they are strangely silent, they no longer give unwavering support to this president.

If you want to play more games and learn about history, Defiant, I'll create a thread about the history of the Bush family, and how they made their money from the Nazis.

	18-06-2003 09:29									#45
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why is the media to blame for people assuming things they never reported?

Well some of us who still think the media has a duty to perform a public service by keeping the citizenry informed (as opposed to merely make a profit) believe that the president LYING to start a war (in itself only to wag the dog away from the economy) is news. All we heard for months before the war was "WMDs", "imminent threat", "nuclear program", "uranium". Now where is that stuff? I guess it can go on a milk carton - like Osama and Saddam.

Just goes to show, the free market gives you FOX and CNN. The public sector gives you NPR and the BBC. Now who was defending free market media again?

	18-06-2003 09:34									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant See Sava, this is the major league in politics and either you are one of the heavy hitters like Bush and rule the game or you are a bat boy in the farm league like yourself. The best thing you can do is stay our of their way, your life will be better off.

Or your a bat boy in the farm league, like yourself, who tries to shine by reflected glory. Bush may be your boy, but he wouldn't piss in your mouth if your stomach was on fire.

But I guess your attitude is appropriate, after all, Bush was appointed and not elected. I guess notions like democracy ought to get out of the way of heavy hitters right?

And why do conservatives talk in sports metaphors all the time?

	18-06-2003 09:56									#47
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Boris -

quote: I'm amazed out how many conservatives are so complacent about being played like fiddles.

Many conservatives voted for him, did you really expect them all to behave any differently than the liberals who voted for "Slick" and gave him passes on his shenanigans?

chegitz - Your analysis ignores that the media is usually pro-war regardless of which party is in charge and takes quite a bit of time before turning excessively cynical. Btw, the NYT and LA Times have been going after Bush on the absence of WMD. Second, you seem to be saying that the media can't be liberal because it's willfully incompetent wrt to Bush. I'd say that's good evidence that the media is liberal. Government has grown leaps and bounds under Bush, what better definition of a liberal? The media is liberal and a century of pushing big government solutions to "our" problems shows that.

	18-06-2003 10:06									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Boris - The media is liberal and a century of pushing big government solutions to "our" problems shows that.

Right. Liberals like Hume, Cavuto, Hannity, and O'Reilly on Fox, Dobbs and Novack on CNN, Scarborough and Mathews on MSNBC, Rush on the radio, Kristol, Goldberg, and Buckley in print and online. Ann Coulter on every damn talk show.

Yeah, all those big gubbament liberals out to cheat the good decent Chrstian folks in the business world. Like the guys at Enron.

	18-06-2003 10:11									#49
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Well some of us who still think the media has a duty to perform a public service by keeping the citizenry informed

That's correct. That's why they never said that the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi or that WMD has been found thus far in Iraq. Now I'm somewhat confused why you chose to quote my post and not deal with it on any substantive level.

	18-06-2003 10:35									#50
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quote: Well some of us who still think the media has a duty to perform a public service by keeping the citizenry informed

Hehe, when did you start thinking that? Look at the press 210 years ago when Adams and Jefferson were forming the first 2 parties.

Templar -

quote: Right. Liberals like Hume, Cavuto, Hannity, and O'Reilly on Fox, Dobbs and Novack on CNN, Scarborough and Mathews on MSNBC, Rush on the radio, Kristol, Goldberg, and Buckley in print and online. Ann Coulter on every damn talk show. Yeah, all those big gubbament liberals out to cheat the good decent Chrstian folks in the business world. Like the guys at Enron.

And even most of the "conservatives" you've cited support big government, they just don't agree with you all the time about which freedoms to remove. Citing a radio entertainer, book author, and an assortment of people from financial guys along with a few Republicans doesn't mean the media hasn't been liberal for decades. And Mathews? He worked for Tip O'Neill for god's sake.

Here's a simple test: how big was the federal government 200 years ago? How big was it 100 years ago? And now? See a trend? And has the media been fighting against this growth in government? On select issues, like preserving freedom of the press/speech. Whoopie!!! But when it comes to "solving problems", even local or state, the media is constantly on the side of federalising the problems. Government grew alot under Reagan, was the media criticising him for allowing the increase? Of course not, he was constantly criticised for not growing government enough. Slowing the increase in a program's budget became a budget cut, etc... If the media ain't liberal enough for a quasi-socialist, that doesn't mean it isn't liberal.

	18-06-2003 10:39									#51
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quote: Just goes to show, the free market gives you FOX and CNN. The public sector gives you NPR and the BBC. Now who was defending free market media again?

Yeah, Pravda was such a reliable source.

	18-06-2003 10:44									#52
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Btw, Reagan campaigned on getting rid of the federal dept of education? Did the media go after him for not telling the truth when he didn't try to end it? No. When Reagan ran as a "pro-life" candidate, did the media attack him for nominating "pro-choicers" to the court? No. But they sure attacked him if a pro-life candidate was up for nomination.

	18-06-2003 10:45									#53
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Pretty dumb thread, che. This information proves nothing about the quality of the media; it merely shows that many Americans don't pay attention to the news. Don't blame the media for the self imposed ignorance of much of the American population.

	18-06-2003 10:46									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Yeah, Pravda was such a reliable source.

But, but, it's so entertaining http://english.pravda.ru. (Yes, I realize this is not the right smiley, but I've always wanted to use it.)

	18-06-2003 10:50									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The "liberating Iraqis" line didn't emerge until we were just about ready to roll into the country. Don't let revisionism fool you.

It was brought up before the war. It was a secondary reason.

Revisionism would be if we didn't bring up the "Iraqi freedom" angle until after the war when the "WMD" angle failed.

	18-06-2003 10:57									#56
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara An official British investigation into two trailers found in northern Iraq has concluded they are not mobile germ warfare labs, as was claimed by Tony Blair and President George Bush, but were for the production of hydrogen to fill artillery balloons, as the Iraqis have continued to insist.

Artillery balloons? I seriously doubt the usefulness, and hence the existence of such a project.

	18-06-2003 11:00									#57
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Americans are so ignorant. They don't even watch the news, otherwise they would have been informed.

	18-06-2003 11:13									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior Artillery balloons? I seriously doubt the usefulness, and hence the existence of such a project.

Artillery balloons = balloons that serve as spotters for artillery. Iraqi military technology hasn't quite advanced to the unmanned drone stage.

	18-06-2003 11:15									#59
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or, it seems, to gunpowder age.

	18-06-2003 11:19									#60
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what a dumbass thread.

Do you think even the right wing Fox news goes around telling the U.S. that the hijackers were Iraqis?

You lefties need to think before you make threads.

Americans don't think these things because of news stations like Fox News.

They think this way because they are ignorant, and don't read the newspaper nor watch the news on tv or the internet.

But all the lefties can think to do is blame american ignorance on the right wingers. Americans were ignorant long before right wingers even existed.