29-07-2003 09:59									#451
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quote: Originally posted by Frozzy Ye bugger wee Finbar

I gave you plenty of opportunity!

quote: I fear the mediation won't appeal to either side. People here are starting to ponder where the honour in wearing the black jersey has gone, but the thing is, the honour is still there. The thing people don't understand is that a rugby player's job is extremely risky. They work 15-20 years max, and one injury, bang, your out of there, and left to scrounge on what you've earned. If you are lucky, you may get sponsorship deals post-career, but this isn't s*****, where everyone who retires gets a fancy deal with a dog food advertisement, or some such.

Absolutely right. The talk of playing simply for the honour, et al, was applicable in the days when it was an amateur sport. In those days, players worked for a living while playing rugby. These days it's a professional code, with all the demands on players that professionalism makes. The NZRFU's problem, of course, is that, having stuffed up the WRC co-hosting situation, they don't have the funds available they would have had. Fear not, Frozzy, the NZRFU will cough up. They know they'll be lynched by the fans if they don't.

quote: I'm glad I don't rely on you when it comes to betting the real stuff!

Has anyone told you that no one likes a smartypants gloater?

	29-07-2003 10:43									#452
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quote: Absolutely right. The talk of playing simply for the honour, et al, was applicable in the days when it was an amateur sport. In those days, players worked for a living while playing rugby. These days it's a professional code, with all the demands on players that professionalism makes. The NZRFU's problem, of course, is that, having stuffed up the WRC co-hosting situation, they don't have the funds available they would have had. Fear not, Frozzy, the NZRFU will cough up. They know they'll be lynched by the fans if they don't.

I'm inclined to agree. Professionalism "saved" Rugby in a way. I watched a documentary about professional sports the other day, and it is amazing how much money has been pumped into sports. For example, Rugby League in Britain has only been possible because of BSkyB's huge injection of money into the sport (Super League). All right, professionalism in s***** has been around since the turn of last century, but NZ was rather slow to get on the bandwagon for professional rugby. Professionalism has it's ups and downs: Disciplined games, entertainment, good coverage, money into the RFUs and then into grass roots. But like I said...

How much will it affect AB preparation. It isn't something we need, suffice it to say.

	29-07-2003 11:46									#453
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quote: Originally posted by Frozzy I'm inclined to agree. Professionalism "saved" Rugby in a way. I watched a documentary about professional sports the other day, and it is amazing how much money has been pumped into sports. For example, Rugby League in Britain has only been possible because of BSkyB's huge injection of money into the sport (Super League). All right, professionalism in s***** has been around since the turn of last century, but NZ was rather slow to get on the bandwagon for professional rugby. Professionalism has it's ups and downs: Disciplined games, entertainment, good coverage, money into the RFUs and then into grass roots. But like I said...

As you say, ups and downs. Rugby has certainly benefited from professionalism in this country. The greater exposure has introduced a lot of people to the game which would have forever remained in the shadow of Australian Rules. Of course, the exposure has brought a yob element into the crowds, but I suspect that's a price that has to be paid. Anyway, at least professionalism put an end to "shamateurism", which made the so-called amateur game an absolute joke.

Oh, we also shouldn't forget that Tamerlain lays the blame for the appalling standard of refereeing, worldwide, at the feet of Rupert Murdoch.

quote: How much will it affect AB preparation. It isn't something we need, suffice it to say.

That was the question here when our pay dispute was happening. That the Wallabies are now playing like sh*t after the dispute was settled, having played like sh*t before it was settled, seems to indicate it didn't have an effect. I'd've thought your players were all intelligent and disciplined enough to be able to leave the fiscal problems in the dressing room. I'd've thought, in fact, the problems might even inspire the players to greater heights - and I don't mean wanting to prove their worth to the NZRFU, I mean them wanting to make the NZRFU look like even bigger dills for threatening to choose a B team.

	29-07-2003 12:05									#454
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quote: As you say, ups and downs. Rugby has certainly benefited from professionalism in this country. The greater exposure has introduced a lot of people to the game which would have forever remained in the shadow of Australian Rules. Of course, the exposure has brought a yob element into the crowds, but I suspect that's a price that has to be paid. Anyway, at least professionalism put an end to "shamateurism", which made the so-called amateur game an absolute joke.

Well, Aussie Rules and Rugby League are too well established, and too popular for the ARU to make a significant foothold in the TV market, particularly in the west. S***** has, in the last 20 or 30 years, had a yobbish following, particularly the UK. But it it still popular in those areas.

Rugby wouldn't be taken over by any other sport in New Zealand, at least in the near future. So I think grass roots are secured for the time being.

quote: Oh, we also shouldn't forget that Tamerlain lays the blame for the appalling standard of refereeing, worldwide, at the feet of Rupert Murdoch.

Rupert Murdoch - The Hindu God of Sky I was looking at British advertisements on a budget "Funniest TV ads" show and, quite frankly, it is amazing how much our lives are affected by products that don't help you work, rest and play. But if we can get past the TV era, and the cash cow professional sports are to big networks, maybe we'll discover the future is a nauseating shade of green as opposed to bright orange.

quote: That was the question here when our pay dispute was happening. That the Wallabies are now playing like sh*t after the dispute was settled, having played like sh*t before it was settled, seems to indicate it didn't have an effect. I'd've thought your players were all intelligent and disciplined enough to be able to leave the fiscal problems in the dressing room. I'd've thought, in fact, the problems might even inspire the players to greater heights - and I don't mean wanting to prove their worth to the NZRFU, I mean them wanting to make the NZRFU look like even bigger dills for threatening to choose a B team.

It could have a knock on effect on the younger guys (I look in particular at Rokocoko, Carter et. al.), but most definately the old guard (Marshall, Thorn, Umaga et al) will come through strong.

	29-07-2003 12:38									#455
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quote: Originally posted by Frozzy Well, Aussie Rules and Rugby League are too well established, and too popular for the ARU to make a significant foothold in the TV market, particularly in the west.

Rugby will never overtake Australian Rules simply because Australian Rules is God in four of the six states. L***** is its competition, because it and L***** share the other two states. With the right handling, it can take over from L*****. Success in the WRC would help, but that, obviously, is now a fantasy.

quote: Rugby wouldn't be taken over by any other sport in New Zealand, at least in the near future. So I think grass roots are secured for the time being.

I can't see it ever being taken over by anything. It's a religion. Thus, amongst other things, your depth of rugby talent for such a small place.

...............................................

They're not full stops. I was just leaving space for Havak to insert a reference to various outlying Auckland suburbs like Fiji.

quote: Rupert Murdoch - The Hindu God of Sky

Yet another reason why I'm ashamed to be Australian.

quote: It could have a knock on effect on the younger guys (I look in particular at Rokocoko, Carter et. al.), but most definately the old guard (Marshall, Thorn, Umaga et al) will come through strong.

You can be sure the older heads are already counselling the younger heads. Oh, and after the other night, I don't think J. Marshall will be featuring all that prominently in the campaign.

	29-07-2003 13:24									#456
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I’ll admit it I really enjoyed Saturdays game. There is no back line in the world like that AB line up at the moment.

But what price the Wallabies winning the return leg I wonder?

And you’ll never convince me that NZ have the right to play Fijians by the way – that’s why I like the fact they are called the All Blacks – it’s a much more honest name than trying to pass then off as ‘New Zealand’ when they are clearly no such thing.

What bugs me most is that Fiji is a British Protectorate – Rokocoko should clearly be playing for us.

Oh and were I an Aussie I’d be looking to hang that little traitor donning the black – Devine isn’t it?

So Finbar – what do you make of the very public attack on Eddie by his ‘illustrious’ predecessor? Not you favourite ex Wallaby coach if I remember correctly?

	29-07-2003 13:47									#457
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I’ll admit it I really enjoyed Saturdays game. There is no back line in the world like that AB line up at the moment. But what price the Wallabies winning the return leg I wonder?

I'll reckon even the Aussie betting outlets have closed betting

quote: And you’ll never convince me that NZ have the right to play Fijians by the way – that’s why I like the fact they are called the All Blacks – it’s a much more honest name than trying to pass then off as ‘New Zealand’ when they are clearly no such thing.

For you information Havak, Mr. Rokocoko played for:Auckland Schools - 2000/01
NZ Schools - 2000/01
NZ Under-16 - 1999
NZ Under-19 - 2001/02
NZ Sevens - 2002
NZ Under-21 - 2002

I see not a palm tree encrested white shirt among them.

quote: What bugs me most is that Fiji is a British Protectorate – Rokocoko should clearly be playing for us.

We have a free trade agreement with them. We ship over tourists, they give us their fast guys.

quote: Oh and were I an Aussie I’d be looking to hang that little traitor donning the black – Devine isn’t it?

Why hang an intellegent person?

	29-07-2003 13:56									#458
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quote: Originally posted by Havak What bugs me most is that Fiji is a British Protectorate – Rokocoko should clearly be playing for us.

Bah phooey!
When Britain used to have an empire on which the sun never set their outermost provinces were 20 000-odd km away. Even today Ernie Rutherford (the Kiwi who helped split the atom) is classed as a Brit according to most British references, and this was in the 1930's.
Fiji isn't even one of Aucklands outermost suburbs by that comparison.
Those grapes of yours are so sour that they've already been used to make champagne six hundred years ago.



I doubt its mathematically possible for the Wallabies to win the tri-nations this time around. They'd need two big wins in their last two matches (including against NZ in NZ) and have to hope for a reasonable Bok win over NZ to boot. Not a likely set of circumstances ...

	29-07-2003 14:40									#459
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A rudimentary background check shows Lord Rutherford had two British born parents which immediately qualifiy him with more right to be classed 'British' than any Fijian has to be an 'Aucklander'.

I don't expect the Wallabies to win the tournament - but they have been written off for the return leg and to my mind that makes them fairly dangerous.

Plus Spencer has received the kiss of death this week - Marshall refered to him as the 'best fly half in the world'.

Personally I think his kicking game lets him down there - what say you?

	29-07-2003 14:46									#460
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1st 5s don't need to kick.

I don't see Burke wearing the #10 jersey...

	29-07-2003 14:56									#461
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quote: Originally posted by Havak A rudimentary background check shows Lord Rutherford had two British born parents which immediately qualifiy him with more right to be classed 'British' than any Fijian has to be an 'Aucklander'.

Can't think of too many rugby examples at the moment but would the names "Allan Lamb", "Derek Randall" and perhaps "Ian Botham" ring any bells?

quote: I don't expect the Wallabies to win the tournament - but they have been written off for the return leg and to my mind that makes them fairly dangerous.

If they have, in fact, been "written off" for the return leg then, yes, thats rather foolish considering that the Bledisloe is at stake and that they do have this weekend to try and put together some sort of form. I hope this isn't the case - in NZ anyway. Australian commentators can do all the writing away they wish.

quote: Plus Spencer has received the kiss of death this week - Marshall refered to him as the 'best fly half in the world'.

There's them grapes again. Wilco must've been drinking too much.

quote: Personally I think his kicking game lets him down there - what say you?

"A good kicking day doth not a good kicker make, and a bad kicking day should not a good kicker break"

[Apologies to whomever I have traumatised by trashing a once good quote]

	29-07-2003 16:06									#462
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Lamby was a Rhodesian who naturalised as a Brit (exactly like Hicky)- fair cop.

But Randall is Nottighamshire born and bred and Botham is from suburban Cheshire I think you'll find.

I think Mike Catt, Henry Paul and Dewi Morris were the names escaping you - a Bok, a Kiwi and an almost taff who donned the rose instead. But the current squad is 100% English (sinced they dropped Henry Paul from the XV man game anyway)

As for the Bledisloe clincher game we should pick up the Kiwi commentary for the return leg which should at least spare me the Channel 7 "go you good men go" nonsense. yes even in the defeat the summariser uttered this as they scored their last try.

Sour grapes? Naaaa - just having fun. I don't mind if one Kiwi player describes another as the best at anything - the proof of the pudding is in the eating and so far it's Wilko Two - Spencer Zero.

By the way does he ever have good kicking games - I've seen him play a fair few times now and he hasn't in any of those games.

	29-07-2003 16:53									#463
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Oh, we also shouldn't forget that Tamerlain lays the blame for the appalling standard of refereeing, worldwide, at the feet of Rupert Murdoch.

IMO, the money grabbers that have invested into Rugby would like to change the nature of the game in order to keep it simple and easier to understand to the uneducated, to the detriment of its original values. The goal is simple, attracting more audience and thus generating more profits out of our favorite sport. Australia also shares a part of the responsability as it is struggling with two other major sports, Rugby L***** and Australian Rule, the ARFU is thus trying to attract new customers (how to give them another name) at all cost.

If you can't change the laws, change the judges.

	29-07-2003 17:27									#464
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I think Tamerlin gave a pretty good description of Super 12 in that opening sentence don't you?

	29-07-2003 17:41									#465
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quote: For you information Havak, Mr. Rokocoko played for:Auckland Schools - 2000/01 NZ Schools - 2000/01 NZ Under-16 - 1999 NZ Under-19 - 2001/02 NZ Sevens - 2002 NZ Under-21 – 2002

It’s only a defence if his family moved to NZ for non rugby reasons when he was a child – otherwise it’s the same old manipulation of residency eligibility. Has he lived in NZ all his life – does his family work there – or was he imported purely to qualify for rugger? There was talk a while back of making residency seven years from majority (though it may have been me whilst in my cups)– high time they brought that in I think as how many lads with that talent will wait until 25 to play international rugger?

I don’t blame the Kiwi Union for this necessarily – if the laws allow it you make sure players like Rokocoko head your way - but the IRB needs to wake up and do something about it because whilst this does the ABs a power of good it does Fiji none at all – and the IRB’s remit is to grow world rugby not protect the superpowers surely?

Particularly poignant in a World Cup year I think.

	29-07-2003 19:21									#466
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quote: Originally posted by Havak But what price the Wallabies winning the return leg I wonder?

100/1 in a two horse race.

quote: And you’ll never convince me that NZ have the right to play Fijians by the way – that’s why I like the fact they are called the All Blacks – it’s a much more honest name than trying to pass then off as ‘New Zealand’ when they are clearly no such thing. What bugs me most is that Fiji is a British Protectorate – Rokocoko should clearly be playing for us.

Look, I left sufficient dotted lines in my earlier post for you to insert your diatribe!

quote: Oh and were I an Aussie I’d be looking to hang that little traitor donning the black – Devine isn’t it?

Good luck to him. He couldn't get a look in at the Waratahs so he nicked off. But then so did a lot of other players who nicked off to star for the Brumbies. All prior to Bob's time. NSW has a long history of letting talent slip through its fingers.

quote: So Finbar – what do you make of the very public attack on Eddie by his ‘illustrious’ predecessor? Not you favourite ex Wallaby coach if I remember correctly?

The knives are really out for Eddie - and George Gregan - at the moment. It's getting a bit ridiculous. As if wholesale sacking of staff and players is going to do any good - for the WRC - at this stage. I mean, I have doubts about Eddie's coaching abilities at the top level, but it's too late now. They will, undoubtedly, improve, but whether by enough to threaten seriously later in the year is another matter.

Alan Jones' outburst was entirely predictable because he's been after Eddie's blood for ages. I think I mentioned at the time of the search for a replacement for Bob at the Waratahs that Jones was backing someone against Eddie's choice. Eddie's choice - former Wallaby prop Ewan McKenzie - got the gig, which only irritated A. Jones even more. Poisonous lump of lard that he is.

	29-07-2003 19:26									#467
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quote: Originally posted by Frozzy We have a free trade agreement with them. We ship over tourists, they give us their fast guys.

Gawn, Frozzy, get into him!

	29-07-2003 19:30									#468
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I think Tamerlin gave a pretty good description of Super 12 in that opening sentence don't you?

I'm overlooking everything Tamerlin posts for the next month or so on the basis that he's still suffering le coup de soleil.

	29-07-2003 19:35									#469
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quote: Originally posted by Frozzy 1st 5s don't need to kick.

Don't need to kick for goal? Um, well, your 1st 5 is, currently, your goal kicker. And a very inconsistent one.

	29-07-2003 19:40									#470
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quote: Originally posted by Havak By the way does he ever have good kicking games - I've seen him play a fair few times now and he hasn't in any of those games.

He kicked a lot more consistently in S12 than he has in the Tests. Probably the pressure. I think that's his problem. I don't know enough about the science of goal kicking technique to know whether that's his problem.

	29-07-2003 22:13									#471
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I'm overlooking everything Tamerlin posts for the next month or so on the basis that he's still suffering de son coup de soleil.

I don't need a coup de soleil to post rantings about what you call Rugby in the SH...


I have corrected your sentence, BTW...

	30-07-2003 04:30									#472
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I don't need a coup de soleil to post rantings about what you call Rugby in the SH...

No, but coup de soleil does give the rantings quite an attractive rabid quality, in the sense that one can almost feel the flecks of foam spattering your computer screen.

quote: I have corrected your sentence, BTW...

Merci, mon ami! I thought there would probably be a pronoun in their somewhere. I also found another word for sunstroke - insolation. Are they interchangeable? Or does it mean something else?

	30-07-2003 04:36									#473
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quote: Originally posted by Havak So Finbar – what do you make of the very public attack on Eddie by his ‘illustrious’ predecessor? Not you favourite ex Wallaby coach if I remember correctly?

Here's a bit of background on the Alan and Eddie Jones history. It's not entirely objective because the author has had run-ins with A. Jones, but the facts are pretty much the case.

	30-07-2003 07:19									#474
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quote: Originally posted by finbar No, but coup de soleil does give the rantings quite an attractive rabid quality, in the sense that one can almost feel the flecks of foam spattering your computer screen.

Me, rabid?

quote: Merci, mon ami! I thought there would probably be a pronoun in their somewhere. I also found another word for sunstroke - insolation. Are they interchangeable? Or does it mean something else?

Insolation is different from the mere sunstroke which is only an inflammation of the skin coming from an over exposure to UV rays, the Insolation is an over exposure to the sun on the head which is then over heated. The effects can be serious though they are generally no more than a fever and a severe headache.

	30-07-2003 09:11									#475
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Me, rabid?

WOOF!

quote: Insolation is different from the mere sunstroke which is only an inflammation of the skin coming from an over exposure to UV rays, the Insolation is an over exposure to the sun on the head which is then over heated. The effects can be serious though they are generally no more than a fever and a severe headache.

Ah, I see. So coup de soleil is what we call sunburn, and insolation is what we call heatstroke as a result of too much sun. Well, heatstroke is much more likely to send a normally sane and sensible person a bit loopy than sunburn, particularly when it comes to discussing rugby, so no prizes for guessing that I chose the wrong word!

	30-07-2003 10:49									#476
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quote: Originally posted by Havak But Randall is Nottighamshire born and bred and Botham is from suburban Cheshire I think you'll find.

Well bother. This would have to be the one time you called me on it too. I was on my way out the door and didn't have time to check properly.
I meant to say Robin Jackman instead of Randell and Lamb instead of Botham. Ooops. I'm sure there was a third at about the same time but I just don't remember who it was. I'd completely forgotten about Hick.

quote: As for the Bledisloe clincher game we should pick up the Kiwi commentary for the return leg which should at least spare me the Channel 7 "go you good men go" nonsense. yes even in the defeat the summariser uttered this as they scored their last try.

I heard that and cringed.

quote: Sour grapes? Naaaa - just having fun. I don't mind if one Kiwi player describes another as the best at anything

Far be it from you to condemn our donning of the tinted spectacles when you too may wish to make such a fashion statement again someday?

quote: - the proof of the pudding is in the eating and so far it's Wilko Two - Spencer Zero.

I'm pretty sure the roots of that metaphor lie with another prop a hundred or so years ago. I'm not so sure about the time frame but it must've come from a prop anyway.

quote: By the way does he ever have good kicking games - I've seen him play a fair few times now and he hasn't in any of those games.

I refuse to respond to that. Okay, I don't know how to respond to it but I'll be sure to trot it out one of these days and then you'll be sorry.
Assuming humankind hasn't evolved beyond this plane of existence by that time of course.

quote: I don’t blame the Kiwi Union for this necessarily – if the laws allow it you make sure players like Rokocoko head your way - but the IRB needs to wake up and do something about it because whilst this does the ABs a power of good it does Fiji none at all – and the IRB’s remit is to grow world rugby not protect the superpowers surely?

One thing to remember though here, in all seriousness, is that Rokocoko and others like him have spent a considerable amount of time playing in NZ and developing from such - particularly if playing since age 15 or so. Would he have developed the same way or to the same level had he remained in Fiji?
I'm not trying to make the point that NZ rugby itself, or the development system from a young age, is greatly superior to any other mind, just that rugby here has more of a primary focus than in many other places, and that he may not have had the same advantages in Fiji.
Yes he's become a pretty capable player and yes he probably would have done the same in Fiji but probably not to the same extent, IMHO anyway.

	30-07-2003 11:03									#477
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon I'd completely forgotten about Hick.

So, finally, did the England selectors.

BTW, speaking of cricket, did anyone notice the, um, rollercoaster couple of days that Nasser Hussain recently enjoyed?

1. "South Africa are there for the taking"

- N.H., after losing the toss on the first morning of the first Test match against South Africa.

2. South Africa 5/120,000

- The scoreboard two days later.

"I'm still an emotional basketcase from the Ashes thrashing, I quit as captain"

- N.H., three days later.

Sort of redefines "when you're up, you're up; when you're down, etc", doesn't it?

	30-07-2003 11:49									#478
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I think Mike Catt, Henry Paul and Dewi Morris were the names escaping you - a Bok, a Kiwi and an almost taff who donned the rose instead. But the current squad is 100% English (sinced they dropped Henry Paul from the XV man game anyway)

Henry Paul is a less spurious a player than you may think. After playing Rugby L***** in Britain for a few years, getting settled in and all, he's hardly going to go back to New Zealand just to play for the All Blacks now, is he?

quote: As for the Bledisloe clincher game we should pick up the Kiwi commentary for the return leg which should at least spare me the Channel 7 "go you good men go" nonsense. yes even in the defeat the summariser uttered this as they scored their last try.

I keep telling finbar that even dear Murray Mexted is more entertaining than commentary from a pub in Sydney. As with Super 12, it's in New Zealand, so you'll most probably get Kiwi coverage.

quote: Sour grapes? Naaaa - just having fun. I don't mind if one Kiwi player describes another as the best at anything - the proof of the pudding is in the eating and so far it's Wilko Two - Spencer Zero.

Yes... and with the amount young Jonny is eating it's no small wonder why he's constipated when he takes a kick.

quote: By the way does he ever have good kicking games - I've seen him play a fair few times now and he hasn't in any of those games.

I was surprised to see him do so poorly at Loftus a fortnight back. He has played there quite a bit, but I'm sure it should come together when the Tri-Nations circus hits Auckland.

	30-07-2003 11:54									#479
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Don't need to kick for goal? Um, well, your 1st 5 is, currently, your goal kicker. And a very inconsistent one.

I totally agree... but my point was that the All Blacks have alternative options if Carlos doesn't produce the goods in the World Cup. More to the point, I think Mitchell is trying to get Spencer to "heal" his pressure problem before October rolls around.

	30-07-2003 12:02									#480
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quote: Originally posted by finbar So, finally, did the England selectors. BTW, speaking of cricket, did anyone notice the, um, rollercoaster couple of days that Nasser Hussain recently enjoyed? 1. "South Africa are there for the taking" - N.H., after losing the toss on the first morning of the first Test match against South Africa. 2. South Africa 5/120,000 - The scoreboard two days later. "I'm still an emotional basketcase from the Ashes thrashing, I quit as captain" - N.H., three days later. Sort of redefines "when you're up, you're up; when you're down, etc", doesn't it?

*singsong voice* British! Oh, so British!