20-06-2003 14:30									#1
	Amendment to the Constitution: Elections of Consuls Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

This Constitutional Amendment shall be open for 48 hours as provided for in the Constitution.

This Constitutional Amendment is credited to BigFurryMonster, with some slight editing.

This Constitutional Amendment will pass with a 50% +1 vote majority and will become part of our Constitution immediately.

The parts below with lines through it is what is being amended out of the Constitution.

The parts below in blue is what is being amended into the Constitution.


A. The Consuls

1. Three Citizens shall be elected as Consuls.
   a. Initial elections will occur upon ratification of this Constitution.
   b. There will be an opportunity to nominate the Consuls, and then an election, where the 3 people with the most manual ballots are chosen as Consuls.
   
   a. On the 1st of each month an election will be held in order to rotate the Consulship, according to EDT/EST.
   
   b. A thread for a list of candidates for the election shall posted between 3-7 days before the end of every month. A thread for one month does not carryover to the next month. A new thread must be started.
   
   c. In order to be considered for the election, a member of the Apolyton ISDG team must be nominated by a fellow member and then the nominated member must accept the nomination in that thread before the 1st of every month, according to EDT/EST.
   
   d. The election poll will run for 72 hours, starting on the 1st day of each month, according to EDT/EST. All current Consuls are to be in the election poll.
   
   e. The two current Consuls who get the most votes out of the three consuls shall remain in office. These two people are removed from the list of candidates.
   
   f. The person or persons who gets the most votes overall, in the remainder of the list, will get elected as the third Consul.
   
   g. The acting Consuls are responsible for setting up the election poll.
   
   h. Any member of the Apolyton ISDG team may start the thread for nominations, but he must make a nomination at that time.
   
   
2. The Consuls have the authority to play the game.
   
3. The Consuls have the authority to make final game decisions, but must act within the boundaries of the law.
   
4. The Consuls should follow legal minister orders unless forced by unforseen circumstances.
   
5. One Consul shall be appointed President.
   
6. The Consuls have the power to rule on senatorial disputes in a manner they see fit.
   
7. Consuls may only be removed from office by a vote of No-Confidence.
   
8. The Consuls appoint Ministers.

Last edited by BigFree on 20-06-2003 at 14:45

	20-06-2003 15:13									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Nay; too much work, done too often. Our Consuls need to be busy playing turns, not toadying to remain in power. It takes time to learn the Consul job. If this was once every other month or three, that'd be something.

	20-06-2003 15:27									#3
	Remove this text

Well, that would be for the people to decide. IMO, it's more about the people who are a part of the team, than it is the game in general. If they want a new Consul every month, so be it. If they want to keep a very successful and wise Consul, they will make it so.

We probably could have picked 2 or 3 individuals to play the whole game and they would likely do better than our whole collective. But it is for the enjoyment priciples that this game exsits, IMO.

	20-06-2003 15:46									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I thought that we were going to have a roatating consulship, this is all 3 at once, no way!

Vote no!!

MoI E_T

	20-06-2003 17:04									#5
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by E_T I thought that we were going to have a roatating consulship, this is all 3 at once, no way! Vote no!! MoI E_T

Vote whatever you want, since this IS rotating consulship.

see section "1.e" - that is where the two consuls keeping their post come from. Only one new consul is being elected out of all the remaining candidates.

	20-06-2003 17:44									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

! It's about time we got this implemented.

	20-06-2003 17:51									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Nay... I'm with F-P, every 2 months.

	20-06-2003 18:00									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Every two months sounds like a good idea to me too.

What's with this "presidency" thing (not sure if it's been part of our Constitution all along)? Does this mean the President does more/less work than the other Consuls?


Dominae

	20-06-2003 19:30									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I think 2 months is better.

	20-06-2003 20:03									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I severely dislike how this is setup, though I really like the idea of rotating consules. Making them compete not to be rotated out is just a bad idea IMO though, it doesn't really accomplish any rotation, its alot of work, and we could end up rotating the same position over and over and over....

Way I'd like to see it work:

Each consulship comes up for relection every 3 months, each month we elect one of them (thus rotating). No term limits, so if the person in there is the best for the job they can keep it. I don't particularly care if the time frames are shortened, I just didnt think we wanted more election every month. I'd be fine with even one every other week though personally so long as its only 1 position at a time.

	21-06-2003 08:21									#11
	Support Apolyton

People, this is exactly the same thing that we had proposed in the other thread a few weeks back and is based on BFM's proposal which was well received by most of you.

I don't see why suddenly people are changing their minds... if all 3 consuls are doing a good job, they will stay, simple as that, read the amendment well.

MZ votes YES

	21-06-2003 08:31									#12
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Every two months sounds like a good idea to me too. What's with this "presidency" thing (not sure if it's been part of our Constitution all along)? Does this mean the President does more/less work than the other Consuls? Dominae

The "presidency" thing has always been there, but never implemented by the Consuls. If this proposal fails, I will make the next one for two months and strike out the parts pertaining to the "Presidency."

	21-06-2003 09:08									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

yay!!

It is essentially a rotation of consulships, but without the term limits of 3 months. Also, it allows for a bad consul to be gotten rid of in 1 month instead of 3 (not that I plan to have that happen ).

	21-06-2003 10:36									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It seems clear that there are issues with this amendment as it stands. At present, with the votes the way they have gone, if everyone who voted for the last poll voted here, then the measure would only barely pass at best. If we see that things don;t change in the next day or two I think we just have to go back to a discussion poll and figure out what IS acceptable, then do the poll in two or three parts.

	21-06-2003 11:14									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I'm just rather surprised that most people had agreed to 1 month and now seem to want 2....

And also that point f) implies that if the winning person is also a consul then there will be no rotation: hence a reflection that if all 3 consuls are doing a good job then there's more or less a guarantee that they'll all remain.

I think a lot of people got a little confused with f), and probably thought that it meant that 1 consul would ALWAYS leave each month but that is not the case.

Perhaps BF should have made it more explicit but still, I assure you it is the same proposal in essense as the one BFM gave in the Rotation of Consul thread and which met with very favorable response from almost everyone.

	21-06-2003 17:58									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

Hey there, Mr.Zennage, I never agreed to 1 month. I can't speak for the rest of these nilly-willy mind-changin sheep-chasers, though.

(I live in Texas now, I'm trying to test the local dialect. Whatcha'll think thar?)

::Runs for cover::

	21-06-2003 20:34									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

whoa this is really close, but i don't know what t vote.

	21-06-2003 20:57									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Hey there, Mr.Zennage, I never agreed to 1 month. I can't speak for the rest of these nilly-willy mind-changin sheep-chasers, though. (I live in Texas now, I'm trying to test the local dialect. Whatcha'll think thar?) ::Runs for cover::

I guess then you aren't part of the "most"

	21-06-2003 22:19									#19
	Tired of ads?

Again, I'm fine with it, except I just think it should be every two months.

	23-06-2003 01:11									#20
	Suffering from ads?

Two months is better. Also, take out the "EDT/EST" references. If you must include a reference to time zones, use GMT instead. It's the standard.

	23-06-2003 02:18									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

This Poll is now considered closed, it has run the minimum of 48 hours. The Constitutional Amendment has passed and shall be entered into our Constitution as written above.

The final votes:

Yea= 10
Nea= 9
Abstain=3

	23-06-2003 17:42									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

*runs and hides from the coming debate over how to count abstains*

	23-06-2003 17:56									#23
	Remove this text

Just re-read this amendment:

quote: The person or persons who gets the most votes overall, in the remainder of the list, will get elected as the third Consul.

"Persons" ? I suppose there could be a tie, but it isn't very clear how to handle that.

	23-06-2003 18:33									#24
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Shouldn't this proposal fall, since the yes side only got 50%, and NOT 50 % plus one? ...

	23-06-2003 19:09									#25
	Tired of ads?

Without a great working knowledge of the spirit of the Consitutition we have (it hasn't yet been tested anyway!), I would have to say this measure should fail based on 50% votes for the measure.

To me personally it also seems there is room for considerable improvement in the proposal through a few days of clarifying what it means. I think this WOULD pass once everyone was assured of the meanings of a few parts of it and one or two tiny touch-ups were made.

	24-06-2003 00:43									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

No, No, No.

This amendment passed. The Constitution say nothing about counting "Abstains." An Abstain is neither a Yes nor a No.

When the poll was closed, by me, as allowed by the Constitution, there were 10 votes "Yes" and 9 votes "No." That is a 50%+1 majority for passing the amendment.

There is only a "Yes" side or a "No" side; the "Abstains" do not get counted on either side of the totals, hence the definition of the word.

Do not read more into the Constitution than there is. It was followed to a "T"

If any subsequent amendment is proposed or passed, it would have to deal with this amendment, since it is a part of the Constitution.

	24-06-2003 02:33									#27
	Remove this text

Since we have no court (nor do we need one) and have 3 Consuls, I ask that the Consuls please debate this amongst themselves and decide if this amendment passed or not. NYE is going to have to decide this issue.

IF The Consuls determine that this amendment passed then my new amendment would clearly replace this one.

IF The Consuls determine that this amendment did not pass, then my amendment would serve the purpose of getting this idea into law.

--Togas

	24-06-2003 02:40									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by BigFree When the poll was closed, by me, as allowed by the Constitution, there were 10 votes "Yes" and 9 votes "No." That is a 50%+1 majority for passing the amendment.

Odd. It's 12 - 9 now. How come?

	24-06-2003 03:10									#29
	Put an end to popups!

Argh. This is why we really need to decide on what Abstain means in a poll. Why put it if it doesn't even count?

What the abstain + no currently shows is that exactly HALF of the people either don't want/don't care for this ammendment enough. There is no clear cut majority and I think this ammendment has failed.

You can debate about symantics all you want and claim you had a simple majority when you were legally allowed to close the poll, but I think the fact that there were still other members voting and the score is so close either way, simply closing this poll at a whim would be somewhat unfair to either side.

Anyways, sorry to threadjack, but I think we really need to reopen debate on what abstain is going to count/not count towards in our polls. We had the same problem in the SPDG.

	24-06-2003 03:13									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Odd. It's 12 - 9 now. How come?

It was my perogative to close the poll after 48 hours, accoding to the Constitution. I had set the poll to originaly run for 72 hours. The Constituion says it must run for a minimum of 48 hours, there's no maximum.

Perhaps that is an weakness in the Constitution and should be amended?