23-06-2003 15:42									#91
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I must admit, I'm still having trouble seeing the point of this thread. Just when someone seems to be making a good point, another person'll come along and reinforce the "You Eurocoms are all a big bunch of wusses and you ought to be grateful that us Americans are all hard-as-f*ck, and are more than happy to do your dirty work for you. Did I mention you're all a big bunch of wusses?"

	23-06-2003 17:36									#92
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If those Americans only knew what you have in mind for Exeter they wouldn´t say such things

	23-06-2003 17:39									#93
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I really ought to seek help about that.

	23-06-2003 17:57									#94
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I think we should send peacekeepers to South Central LA instead of Iraq

	23-06-2003 18:14									#95
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Did anyone in the US seriously think that after Bush pissed off the majority of voters in mainland Europe that the governments there would be rushing to spend money sorting out the mess he'd made in Iraq? I don't really believe they could have thought that, it would be very naive.

If only because if they helped clear up the mess this time he might think they'd keep doing it if he ever decides to do something like this again. I'm sure if Bush had had the diplomatic skills to form a proper international coallition, like his father did, there'd be more non-US peacekeepers now.

I think the Brits send around 25,000 troops to Iraq which is about half our total combat troops, that despite the majority of Brits disagreeing with unilateral action against Iraq.

	23-06-2003 18:42									#96
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Here is an interesting article about how much European countries are contributing to the occupation of Iraq. In short, not much, except Britain. The Netherlands is also contributing a good amount for its size. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...ml?nav=hptop_ts On the one hand, I would agree that this is primarily just a function of how this war played out. It wasn't popular in Europe and leaders can't take the political hit to send troops. However, on the other hand, it shows that even those who supported us on this aren't willing to send many troops because of cost or capability. The most interesting thing for me that this points out is the scarcity of political will to support anything militarily in Europe. There has been a lot of talk about how Europe focuses on peacekeeping and the US on warmaking, but this shows that Europe doesn't even have the will for peacekeeping. For instance, France had a tough time putting together 1,000 troops for the Congo. The conclusion that I'm forced to come to is that Europe on the whole is demobilizing to the point where it will be impossible for it to act in any meaningful way outside of its borders, and that the US wish that Europe would spend something like 2.5% of its economy on the military is a fantasy. It may fly in the UK and France, but that's about it.

hi ,

it seems the polish infantry brigade is forgotten , .....

and so is the japanese navel detachment , ....

have a nice day

	23-06-2003 19:13									#97
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The Polish are mentioned specifically more than once in the article.

And since it's about Europe's contribution, there's no need to mention Japan.

	23-06-2003 19:29									#98
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Did anyone in the US seriously think that after Bush pissed off the majority of voters in mainland Europe that the governments there would be rushing to spend money sorting out the mess he'd made in Iraq? I don't really believe they could have thought that, it would be very naive.

Too strong of language all around. First, we didn't make a mess in Iraq, it was already there from previous Hussein mismanagement and wars. Second, I don't think "rushing" is quite the right word of what they were looking for--rather, receptive to a solid, but modest, contribution to an occupation force. Thirdly, Europe wasn't even asked to play a leading role in this.

Instead, we don't even have a solid contribution from Europe. Overall, I agree that they were naive.

there'd be more non-US peacekeepers now

I don't think that is the case. France and Germany were the only ones left out. Even if France and Germany were in, it seems unlikely that the others would increase their participation markedly.

	23-06-2003 19:38									#99
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What alliance? Bush has flushed the remains of that alliance down the toilet. You are miscalculating if you think that that "security umbrella" means "Europe will look favorably on American military-related or nation-building requests when they receive them". You have to offer something else for that.

The Alliance of Happy Freedom-Loving, Dictatorship-Hating Westerners.

The fact is that Europe (the Western part of it at least), places our military alliance at a very low value indeed. All of your statements would hold true even if Clinton had a 3rd term and Iraq hadn't come up again as an issue.

In my opinion, this is due to a dynamic of politics that places very little importance on the military in general.

Last edited by DanS on 23-06-2003 at 19:43

	23-06-2003 19:45									#100
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"The Alliance of Happy Freedom-Loving, Dictatorship-Hating Westerners."

When was there such an alliance? Was Alice a part of it?

"All of your statements would hold true even if Clinton had a 3rd term and Iraq didn't come up again."

Mostly yes. But there would still be a difference in whether the US starts an illegal war of aggression with no clue what to do next while pissing on other countries, or not doing that.

	23-06-2003 19:49									#101
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Mostly yes. But there would still be a difference in whether the US starts an illegal war of aggression with no clue what to do next while pissing on other countries, or not doing that.

That's a topic for another thread, though.

	23-06-2003 19:50									#102
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quote: Originally posted by DanS What alliance? Bush has flushed the remains of that alliance down the toilet. You are miscalculating if you think that that "security umbrella" means "Europe will look favorably on American military-related or nation-building requests when they receive them". You have to offer something else for that. The Alliance of Happy Freedom-Loving, Dictatorship-Hating Westerners.

Since when did the US hate dictators? Most of them are/were US puppets, including Saddam till he went for more oil.

	23-06-2003 19:51									#103
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Again, outside the purview of this thread. Please start another thread for your leftybabble. Thanks!

	23-06-2003 19:51									#104
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quote: Originally posted by August Borms I think we should send peacekeepers to South Central LA instead of Iraq

I guess we are suppose to believe that they can't afford that. Oh, but they HAVE to cut taxes for the rich. **** Bush.

	23-06-2003 19:53									#105
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I think we should send peacekeepers to South Central LA instead of Iraq

Even if you wanted to, you wouldn't have the capability.

	23-06-2003 19:58									#106
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And that's why I think Europe ought to have bases in the US, just like the US has bases in Europe.

	23-06-2003 19:58									#107
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Mostly yes. But there would still be a difference in whether the US starts an illegal war of aggression with no clue what to do next while pissing on other countries, or not doing that. That's a topic for another thread, though.

For the maybe 4th time, you can't separate the silliness of the Iraq adventure from the lack of inclination to send troops there.

It doesn't matter whether it is the way I describe it here, it's more than enough that it is overwhelmingly percieved that way here.

	23-06-2003 20:01									#108
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quote: Originally posted by DanS In my opinion, this is due to a dynamic of politics that places very little importance on the military in general.

Indeed, military action seems to be seen with extreme caution / suspicion around here. Not because we think that "the Americans will clean up the mess eventually and we can happily welfare in the meantime" (this is simply a wrong assessment of the importance we give to the US). But because we think war/force is bad.

Don't get me wrong : the European public opinions were perfectly aware of what happened in Kosovo or Bosnia. The litany of massacres, mass-graves, snipers etc. filled the news every day. And the problem was that we feel powerless because no solution seemed to work. And indeed, we didn't want to imagine adding to the mess by sending more fighting troops there, i.e our own.

However, as much as Europeans are wary of peacemaking attempts, I don't see any significant trend to refuse doing peacekeeping, at least when it comes to causes we feel worth it (i.e not Iraq).
As there doesn't seem to be any threat from a military power over Europe right now, the mission of the militaries is often percieved to be anti-terrorism + peacekeeping; defense of the country isn't that important since there is no expected attacker.

The little emphasis we put on military seems to correspond well to Kagan's Europeans are from Venus.

	23-06-2003 20:05									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Paul Hanson And that's why I think Europe ought to have bases in the US, just like the US has bases in Europe.

Especially along the critical line between US and Canada.
Those Americans need our protection.

	23-06-2003 20:06									#110
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And we all know that Venus defeated Mars....

	23-06-2003 20:07									#111
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler And we all know that Venus defeated Mars....

Love does conquer all.

	23-06-2003 20:17									#112
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And we sure as hell love Americans.

	23-06-2003 20:19									#113
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Basically I think most of Europe lost the will to fight after WWI. I believe this is what lead to appeasement. Europe failed to react to German Agression until they were literally sitting on the doorstep of continental conquest. This trend appears to be continuing. It is if they have adopted Bradbury's Martian's attitude..."My fathers have labored and I am weary"

History has shown that neither Europe or the Us are wussies as some have suggested for each side. The capacity of these two to make war is simply unparralled. The difference may simply be that Europe has for centuries seen the destruction first hand, while the US has been largely isolated from it. It may also be that Europe is continuing its twentieth century philosophy to wait for trouble to find them and the US is continuing its late twentieth century philosophy to go and squash trouble before it finds them.

As far as divergent interests are concerned, I don't see a major difference on how each wants the world to work. The difference seems to be on how to accomplish this. Perhaps they will end up being smart enough to find a way to meld the two approaches to come up with a co-ordinated approach. The stopping of finger pointing would be a good start.

	23-06-2003 21:22									#114
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This may be right, Plato.

The USA seems to be a little bit more trigger-happy than Europeans are, because of the reasons you mentioned.
Therefore we (Europeans) need very good reasons to start a war (because we [i.e. our parents and or grandparents] have experiened firsthand what destruction and suffering for Civilians a war could bring).
For example Afghanistan was supported by a majority of the populace (despite there also were organized Protests from church groups and the like here in germany) and so it wasn´t such a big problem for the Bundesregierung to send peacekeeping troops to afghanistan (and do the jobs which, after the promises Bush made, actually should have been done by US Troops).
Iraq however is another story. A majority of the german population and also the german government opposed the war and saw those "Proofs" for WMDs in Iraq which Colin Powell put forward within the Security Council very sceptical and rather wanted the UN-Weapon Inspections to continue than go to war about it.
After all this Scepticism seems to be justified.
So there is absolutely no reason for Germany, France or Russia (who opposed the War path the USA follows) to station peacekeeping forces within Iraq.
We still have Peacekeeping Forces stationed in several Countries of Ex-Yugoslavia and also in Afghanistan, so no one can say that we shy from international responsibility, but we refrain from supporting unjustified wars (for example by using own troops to help in pacifying the country afterwards )

	23-06-2003 21:27									#115
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I am not sure that support for the war and support for peacekeeping operations should be tied together Proteus. Weather or not you feel the war was justified, surely all now have an interest in a stable and viable Iraq emerging from it.

	23-06-2003 21:39									#116
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 I am not sure that support for the war and support for peacekeeping operations should be tied together Proteus. Weather or not you feel the war was justified, surely all now have an interest in a stable and viable Iraq emerging from it.

Actually, I think the political opposition to the American adventure in Iraq blinds most people in Europe on the fact that we have the same interests with a stable Iraq.
BTW, I'm sure you'd have thousands of French peacekeepers in Iraq, if you gave us the right share of the loot

	23-06-2003 21:42									#117
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 The difference may simply be that Europe has for centuries seen the destruction first hand, while the US has been largely isolated from it.

That's one aspect, the other is that our historical experiences as to what war achieves differ. For the US, it's mostly war of independence, war to keep the country together, WWII, maybe even WWI. For much of europe, WWI and WWII were just totally pointless destruction. And while WWII destroyed Nazism, it also left us with Stalinism right to the middle of the continent.

"Weather or not you feel the war was justified, surely all now have an interest in a stable and viable Iraq emerging from it."

Yes, but even without spicing up the wording as I usually do: It's not going to happen under those circumstances, and there's nothing we can do to change it.

	23-06-2003 21:43									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I'm sure you'd have thousands of French peacekeepers in Iraq, if you gave us the right share of the loot

If I wasn't in such a reconciliatory mood, then I would add that one to my sig line!

quote: Actually, I think the political opposition to the American adventure in Iraq blinds most people in Europe on the fact that we have the same interests with a stable Iraq.

I wonder if a good word from Chirac here would be in order? It would be nice if he would use his self appointed European Leadership for a positive step here

	23-06-2003 22:26									#119
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Hand over the administration of Iraq to the United Nations, and then there'll be plenty of countries willing to supply troops.

	24-06-2003 00:24									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Hand over the administration of Iraq to the United Nations, and then there'll be plenty of countries willing to supply troops.

Yes, I think also Germany would provide troops under those circumstances.

@Plato
Yep, a stable Iraq is also in our interest, but to many people it would seem like we legitimize the war afterwards if we send peacekeeping troops into Iraq.
Therefore handing the administration of Iraq to the UN could help, because after all the UN is respected here in Germany and would be seen as a legitimate Interim government (til the people of Iraq are able to create their own permanent government)