23-06-2003 01:38									#1
	Occupation of Iraq -- Where Is Europe? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Here is an interesting article about how much European countries are contributing to the occupation of Iraq. In short, not much, except Britain. The Netherlands is also contributing a good amount for its size.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...ml?nav=hptop_ts

On the one hand, I would agree that this is primarily just a function of how this war played out. It wasn't popular in Europe and leaders can't take the political hit to send troops. However, on the other hand, it shows that even those who supported us on this aren't willing to send many troops because of cost or capability.

The most interesting thing for me that this points out is the scarcity of political will to support anything militarily in Europe. There has been a lot of talk about how Europe focuses on peacekeeping and the US on warmaking, but this shows that Europe doesn't even have the will for peacekeeping. For instance, France had a tough time putting together 1,000 troops for the Congo.

The conclusion that I'm forced to come to is that Europe on the whole is demobilizing to the point where it will be impossible for it to act in any meaningful way outside of its borders, and that the US wish that Europe would spend something like 2.5% of its economy on the military is a fantasy. It may fly in the UK and France, but that's about it.

Last edited by DanS on 23-06-2003 at 01:43

	23-06-2003 01:45									#2
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The US certainly can not want the troops of stoddy OLD Europe, after all, they are Old. Too bad most states in New Europe aren't very interested in the thing either (two bad in two of the biggest New countries, Italy and Spain opposition to the war was some of the highest).

I think Europe goes by the You broke it, you pay for it notion. It was the US's (and UK's) war, so why should they participate now?

	23-06-2003 01:46									#3
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You're missing the point, GePap. Even if Europe wanted to participate, it doesn't have the capability because of a lack of long-term political will. Europe has totally demobilized.

	23-06-2003 01:48									#4
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Nice troll, but a bit too run-of-the-mill.

	23-06-2003 01:49									#5
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Nice troll,

How is it a troll?

	23-06-2003 01:51									#6
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I'm tempted to say that it's more a lack of force-projection capability; most European militaries are designed for national defence (although I personally don't see what we have to defend ourselves from nowadays), and very few nations have the ability to ferry large numbers of troops across the world.

Not that I'm discounting the political motivation factor, but I don't think it's the only reason.

	23-06-2003 01:51									#7
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How is this a troll? It fits right into our discussion of Robert Kagan's Americans are from Mars, Europeans are from Venus. One of the thoughts was that Europe sees the value in peacekeeping, but not warmaking.

It's clear to me that Kagan is wrong. Europe doesn't even want to peacekeep.

	23-06-2003 01:52									#8
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"but this shows that Europe doesn't even have the will for peacekeeping."

What peacekeeping? We're talking about occupation of a shithole that your proconsuls are making even worse. It would be political madness to send troops there.

"The conclusion that I'm forced to come to is that Europe on the whole is demobilizing to the point where it will be impossible for it to act in any meaningful way outside of its borders"

Demobilizing?

	23-06-2003 01:53									#9
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Would you just be quiet, Roland. I'm trying to promote a discussion here.

	23-06-2003 01:54									#10
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The numbers sent, even by Britain, are paltry, purely for the purposes of window dressing. Why should indifferent countries be expected to contribute troops for what is essentially a PR stunt?

	23-06-2003 01:55									#11
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I'm trying to promote a discussion here.

No, you're trying to promote a funny worldview here.

	23-06-2003 01:56									#12
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Europe decided sometime ago to spend their money on welfare programs and to let the Yankees worry about military defence. I guess they figure that if the **** really hits the fan they could always just go running to Washington for help. Still, even with Iraq aside, it would be nice if the contental powers would start carrying their own weight.

	23-06-2003 01:59									#13
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The numbers sent, even by Britain, are paltry, purely for the purposes of window dressing.

I don't think Britain's numbers are paltry. 20,000 troops is an honest number--a little more than half as many as the US has there on a per capita basis. Neither are the troops that the Netherlands is sending paltry. Or Denmark, for that matter, considering its size.

	23-06-2003 01:59									#14
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Hmm. Seems some people honestly believe in the "coalition of the willing".

"Coalition of the willing to support an act of aggression", more like it.

Of course Europe isn't geared up for peacekeeping. It's too expensive.
No European political part is going to campaign on a platform of "let's cut the social spending and build a bigger, better army". They'd lose any election going.

Call it a byproduct of democracy.

	23-06-2003 02:01									#15
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The whole idea of europe participating in the occupation Iraq is ridiculous. Name one reason for doing so.

	23-06-2003 02:04									#16
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Hershell: You're missing the point as badly as GePap. Even if Europe wanted to, it couldn't sustain the effort. France and the UK are about the only ones who seem like they could sustain the effort politically, if they chose.

	23-06-2003 02:07									#17
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No Dan, you're missing the point. There is a question of what we can do. That is limited, but every country could scratch together something IF THE POLITICAL WILL WAS THERE.

There is a gazillion reasons why that will is not there regarding Iraq, but you conclude that it is something about Europe in general. That's like saying someone is gay because he doesn't **** the ugliest ***** from under the bridge.

	23-06-2003 02:10									#18
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DanS:

Do you really want Europe to start beefing up its army? I mean, would a Europe with a lower standard of living and better military capabilities really be that much of a benefit to the U.S.A.? Consumer spending on American products in Europe would likely drop, and the newly empowered European armies would be less likely to toe the American line.

I don't disagree that most Europeans (and Canadians) value standard of living over military capabilities, but I'm a little hazy on the assumption that a military-centric Europe would be a great benefit to America.

	23-06-2003 02:12									#19
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There is a gazillion reasons why that will is not there regarding Iraq, but you conclude that it is something about Europe in general.

Yes, I do. As corroborating evidence, I offer the priority that military spending has in most European countries.

	23-06-2003 02:12									#20
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quote: Originally posted by cinch but I'm a little hazy on the assumption that a military-centric Europe would be a great benefit to America.

They might have been able to take care of the Balkans without dragging us in.

	23-06-2003 02:14									#21
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Why should Europe particpate in Iraq? It's our mess.

	23-06-2003 02:15									#22
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quote: I don't think Britain's numbers are paltry. 20,000 troops is an honest number--a little more than half as many as the US has there on a per capita basis. Neither are the troops that the Netherlands is sending paltry. Or Denmark, for that matter, considering its size.

The article says '12,000 foreign troops, mostly British'. I presume those are the peacekeepers, not the fighters. But you're right, 20,000 is an honest little number, that's why it was chosen, just enough not to look pathetic. There is absolutely no credible military reason for the presence of any non-American forces, the main function of whom is to provide a veil of legitimacy and multilateralism. America didn't need any help invading, and it doesn't need any help occupying.

	23-06-2003 02:16									#23
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Yes, I do. As corroborating evidence, I offer the priority that military spending has in most European countries.

We stand at 2 % of GDP on average. The US was at 3 % before the Bushies cranked it up for their new adventures, now it's 4 %.

Now if we were spending 4 % of GDP on the military, wtf would we do with that military?

	23-06-2003 02:19									#24
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Do you really want Europe to start beefing up its army? I mean, would a Europe with a lower standard of living and better military capabilities really be that much of a benefit to the U.S.A.?

It would be. The US has been asking Europe to spend about 2.5% of its economy on their militaries while the US spends about 4%.

From the set of facts that the article lays out, it's clear that American policy makers are fantasizing if they think that Europe will outlay 2.5% of its economy on the military.

	23-06-2003 02:19									#25
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You could try taking care of things like bosnia and Kosovo on your own or maybe sending peace keepers to Chechnya or the several war torn regions in Africa or Kashmire or any of a half dozen other places the bleeding heart types are constently moaning about.

	23-06-2003 02:22									#26
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To take care of Bosnia and Kosovo, we can do nicely woth 2 % of GDP, thanx. Chechenya and kashmir are incredibly stupid examples, and you should know it. But your government could stop its support for the supporters of islamist terror in Kashmir, maybe?

	23-06-2003 02:23									#27
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quote: Originally posted by DanS From the set of facts that the article lays out, it's clear that American policy makers are fantasizing if they think that Europe will outlay 2.5% of its economy on the military.

That's not unrealistic, depending on what comes around.

What they should stop fantisizing about is that we'll increase military spending to support some nutjob ideas from the Pentagon. Even Tony Poodle won't.

	23-06-2003 02:23									#28
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To take care of Bosnia and Kosovo, we can do nicely woth 2 % of GDP, thanx.

But you can't. Who took care of the business end of both? The US and UK.

From Bosnia, Kosovo, and Afghanistan, it was thought that the division of labor would be the US provides the muscle while Europe peacekeeps/occupies. But that model doesn't seem durable to me.

	23-06-2003 02:25									#29
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EU Armies: Build to defend Europe (against former 'Soviet Agression'
US Army: Mobile (to be sent to Europe )

Ahh Trolling is so easy once you get the Hang on it.

	23-06-2003 02:26									#30
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Europe tried to stop Bosnia for three years and failed miserably largely because it didn't have the number & force composition to do the job. Kosovo we 95% a US and UK operation during the fighting because the rest of Europe didn't have suffient missiles, bombs, and combat aircraft to sustain action beyond four weeks.

Is that your idea of handling things fine?