23-06-2003 21:38									#31
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Sorry Plato, I'm not typing it again... I hate when that happens.

	23-06-2003 21:39									#32
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Thought that was weird. The server has been kinda quirky lately hasn't it?

	23-06-2003 21:40									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker Ge Pap: How the heck would you go about fixing the problem of greater poverty levels for minorities while preserving a free market economy? Massive public works? Reparations? Just give them all a big 'Cheque for Not Being White' every year? Free Education? What you want is for minorities to be making an equal amount because THEY are making it, not because it's being 'evened up' by a government program. Free education sounds good in theory, but it would simply drive the advantaged into private schools, like the situation with High Schools in southern states, IMO. I don't think anyone knows how to fix it. Interraccial marriage is a good trend though. If everyone is 'mulatto' then race/minority status is no longer a problem.

Free education is good in practice. The US is the only state that guarantees higher education: and look how much better our higher educationm system is oevrall for doing it. I have no probem with the Best students going to private schools (which is nonsense, as i know from my educational experiences), as long as everyone gets a good and solid education, which is based on the quality of the teaching and the materials useds, not on the "quality" of your peers.

	23-06-2003 21:44									#34
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Ah, che, only reporting one side of the stories until you get the fact... why am I not surprised .

quote: So what the hell does this decision mean?

Quite simply that race may be used as a small 'bump' in order for school diversity, BUT it cannot be a factor used in a formula to decide admissions. Put it simply, a black person cannot get 20 points in the formula for simply being black, however, if he is little bit below or even with a white applicant on the wait list, diversity can give the black guy a small bump.

Adding race to the acceptance formula reminded the 6 justice majority (Breyer joined the conservatives) of a quota.

	23-06-2003 21:47									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Quite simply that race may be used as a small 'bump' in order for school diversity, BUT it cannot be a factor used in a formula to decide admissions.

Why bother writing a new opinion then? Why not just tell people to go look at Bakke?

	23-06-2003 21:48									#36
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I don't realize why it should be a criteria.

	23-06-2003 21:51									#37
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I have no problem if two applicants are equal to minority being the deciding issue. What I have a problem with is when more qualified people are denied opportunity simply because they do not contribute to racial diversity. Racial diversity is a good thing, but the problem must be addressed at the "root" (as GePap) put it. Until educational funding is equal, how does anyone expect minority applicants to be as qualified as non-minorities?
When they have the same opportunities, then let the chips fall as they may with NO influence from race. Until then, the tie goes to the minority. If the non-minority is BETTER QUALIFIED, then they get the position. How can a society turn away its most qualified individuals because they are not a minority. Surely that is a formula for disaster.

	23-06-2003 21:55									#38
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quote: Why bother writing a new opinion then? Why not just tell people to go look at Bakke?

Because of Hopewood and other decisions underneath which were confused about what was a majority in Bakke (since Powell wrote a seperate opinion that kinda become the ruling, but not quite, etc). And because the facts are different from Bakke in that this case doesn't deal with a 'set-aside' but simply that a huge portion of an acceptance formula was based on race.

What they are saying is that subjective decisions of diversity (like geography, activities, and add race to that) is ok for admission, but making it part of the formula is not.

	23-06-2003 22:00									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And because the facts are different from Bakke in that this case doesn't deal with a 'set-aside' but simply that a huge portion of an acceptance formula was based on race.

I know the facts were different but the court still failed to clear up the confusion surrounding the Bakke decision and for all intents and purposes simply restated the issues of law from that opinion.

	23-06-2003 22:02									#40
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Racial diversity is a good thing

If you see it as a good thing - why do you propose that interracial marriages be encouraged in order to make us all 'mullatto' ? After all, that is an admission that different races living together is an undesirable situation. If everyone becomes 'mullatto' that will be an end to diversity, which you seem to think is a good thing. Do you only see it as a good thing because it will lead to homogenization of the races?

	23-06-2003 22:02									#41
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quote: Originally posted by ajbera How about stripping racial considerations from AA, and making entirely economy-based? No points for being black, NA, etc., but more points if you're from an impoverished family than if you're from a middle-class home. Since many minorities are economically disadvantaged, it'll include them, plus all the poor white kids that need a leg up as well.

Because those people who make their livelyhood pushing the race issue wouldn't have anything to push their name in the spotlight.


I agree though. If consideration was made based on economic means insteand of what color your parents were, then perhaps the whole race issue would fade into the past. Unfortuantaly though that will never happen.

	23-06-2003 22:10									#42
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quote: I know the facts were different but the court still failed to clear up the confusion surrounding the Bakke decision and for all intents and purposes simply restated the issues of law from that opinion.

Not really. I think the opinion when seen will clear up the confusion of what WAS the opinion. Since this is a 6-3 and 5-4 (instead of 4-4-1), there will be clear opinions on the matter.

In essence it is what we already kinda know. Racial diversity can be advanced somewhat (as a minor bump, like geography is used), but you cannot assign specific weights to race whether in a strict quota, or in points for a formula.

It seems fairly clear to me.

	23-06-2003 22:33									#43
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This is silly. I can't see how government has any compelling interest in racial diversity - I don't, and neither does anyone I know. Race, to me, is a total non-issue, and it should be the same everywhere else.

	23-06-2003 22:57									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia If you see it as a good thing - why do you propose that interracial marriages be encouraged in order to make us all 'mullatto' ? After all, that is an admission that different races living together is an undesirable situation. If everyone becomes 'mullatto' that will be an end to diversity, which you seem to think is a good thing. Do you only see it as a good thing because it will lead to homogenization of the races?

I don't recall proposing interracial marriages. IMO racial diversity is a good thing as it helps create a homogeneous society with varied cultural attributes.

	23-06-2003 23:03									#45
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quote: I can't see how government has any compelling interest in racial diversity

You can't see how government has a compelling interest in diversity in education? What are you nuts?

	23-06-2003 23:45									#46
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Skimming through the opinions, I see some interesting things.

1st, the main reason why O'Conner backs the law school policy, but NOT the undergrad's policy is because of 'individualized review of applicants'. Under the law school's application policy, every applicant is reviewed individually and race might be a boost to his application. Diversity qualifications are considered on a case-by-case basis. In the undergrad case, it is simply 20 points for being an underrepresented minority. There is little, if any, individualized review of applicants under this system. Diversity qualifications are applied automatically to everyone that falls under the catagory in undergrad.

Therefore the undergrad's policy is NOT narrowly tailored to the compelling governmental interest in diversity (Grutter, ie the law school case, held that diversity is a compelling interest), while the law school's is (because it is individualized and may not always apply).

Another consideration (and one that sways Rehnquist as well) is that while race counts for 20 points, other 'diversity' classifications such as leadership or art talent, etc. only can account for, at most, 5 points. So race counts FOUR times more than the maximum non-minority talented individual can recieve as a boost (even if he is the next Beethoven or Monet).

	24-06-2003 00:07									#47
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quote: I can't see how government has any compelling interest in racial diversity - I don't, and neither does anyone I know. Race, to me, is a total non-issue, and it should be the same everywhere else.

I agree with David Floyd (sort of).

	24-06-2003 02:00									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Ah, che, only reporting one side of the stories until you get the fact... why am I not surprised .

Oh bite me, New Jersey boy. I ran with the first article of the morning. As soon as I saw a more complete arcticle I ran with it.

	24-06-2003 02:02									#49
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Touchy, touchy .

	24-06-2003 02:06									#50
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no wonder I didn't see this thread. I scanned the first page.

too many abbreviations caused me to miss it.

Well you can see my opinion in the other thread. I support affirmitive action as long as there still continues to be discrimination against black people.

	24-06-2003 02:20									#51
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Just another case of the government suppresing the poor black man... I guess the Supreme Court sees things the way I do; minorities just don't have the necessary skills to compete on the same level as whitey...

This was the dumbest, most vague and ambiguous decission I have ever seen farted out of those old, job secured, pig farmers... blah!

	24-06-2003 03:26									#52
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Maybe I'm too close to the situation here, but everyone I've spoken to here in A2 is very surprised by the decision; we all pretty much expected the opposite, with the Law School being struck down, but LSA being upheld. The Law School talks about a "critical mass", which is honestly a code for a quota. But the undergraduate case didn't have that at all... very strange.


And for the umpteenth time, the undergraduate process DOES take into consideration class! No poor white kids were being left behind by U-M admissions. They got 20 points too. It is also highly misleading to compare the 20 points to the "12 points students get for a perfect SAT." The SAT is only one component of the academic factors that the U. takes into consideration; academics total well over 100 points in the admissions process.

	24-06-2003 03:27									#53
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I have been told that I should know affirmitive action is wrong. In theory it is.

It has nothing to do with them lacking the skills to compete with whitey.

It has to do with discrimination.

A few months ago I refused to believe there was any widespread discrimination against black people.

But I've seen and heard some **** to make me reverse that stand. Discrimination is still a part of everyday american society.

I have also been asked why I only support AA for blacks. Well I support AA for hispanics and Native americans as well, though discrimination isn't as bad in those cases.

If someone can make the case there is no discrimination against black people, then I will come out against AA. Until then, it doesn't bother me.

Here's your homework for the day. go home, and just try, no really try to imagine yourself as a poor black person. Take a real close look at their lives.

	24-06-2003 03:33									#54
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The fact that discrimination does exist in the world doesn't necessitate a system that works against those that have nothing to do with it.

Acknowledging racism still exists in the world by implementing a system thats racist??.....

	24-06-2003 03:37									#55
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yeah I know it sounds ****ed up.

But black people want affirmitive action, I think we should give them what they want.

They've suffered enough throughout history.

They should also get reparations.

	24-06-2003 03:43									#56
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd This is silly. I can't see how government has any compelling interest in racial diversity - I don't, and neither does anyone I know. Race, to me, is a total non-issue, and it should be the same everywhere else.

Race is very much an issue in the US - even if it isn't to you. The law has historically disadvantaged several minorites for hundreds of years. Now they get a slight advantage. Boo hoo! If your cracker ass can't overcome that slight advantage after benefiting from years of white privilege, you don't belong in a top school.

Moreover, because race is an issue in general - especially for every minority who gets questioned by a cop for no discernable reason other than they "match a description". The social construction of race leads to viewpoint diversity in a serious way. Both my property class and criminal law class at law school were very much enriched by a strong minority presence - black, hipanic, and asian. A class filled with prep school richboy crackers or middleclass suburban whiteboys would not have been as interesting.

And what the hell is "merit" anyway? A score on a single standardized test? You spend years preparing for higher/professional education and it all comes down to an SAT 2 or LSAT score? Oh yeah, that's a real measure of merit! Grades? Aside from the fact no institution ever really trusts another institutions grades (due to rampant inflation) most grades are inherently subjective. Even math and science (if you are giving partial credit on problems or asking theoretical questions) admit a strong subjective factor. So where is the merit? Come on all you crackers crying about merit, give it a definition!

	24-06-2003 03:46									#57
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I must take exception again to the word cracker.

can't people post without using such derogatory comments?

	24-06-2003 03:47									#58
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This is going to get interesting if O'Connor retires.

	24-06-2003 03:48									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident can't people post without using such derogatory comments?

Some simple (read: stupid) people like to assume that AA opponents are racist.

	24-06-2003 03:49									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident yeah I know it sounds ****ed up. But black people want affirmitive action, I think we should give them what they want. They've suffered enough throughout history. They should also get reparations.

You know, I was actually thinking about your previous post until I saw this one. Talk about blowing your whole argument!