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The Templar
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People's Republic of the East Village
Oct 2001
time: 00:29
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Double Post
Last edited by The Templar on 24-06-2003 at 04:00
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Templar
Race is very much an issue in the US - even if it isn't to you. The law has historically disadvantaged several minorites for hundreds of years. Now they get a slight advantage. Boo hoo! If your cracker ass can't overcome that slight advantage after benefiting from years of white privilege, you don't belong in a top school. |
Please don't misabuse the term cracker by using it as a cheap racial epithet. The word has several useful meanings, none of which are well-served by being associated with the sort of scum who would use this word as an epithet.
White Privilege. It's good to see you've been paying attention in all those racist indoctrination classes at the Uni. With any luck you should be completely incapable of contributing to the common weal by the time you graduate, and will spend your time instead whipping up controversies along racial, cultural, class and gender lines for fun and profit.
It's amazing that with all those centuries of White Privilege that my grandmother had to quit school in the 8th grade in order to pick cotton for food. If only the authorities in Oklahoma were more efficient in their stealing of hundreds of billions of dollars worth of black labor, perhaps my grandmother could have been the first in the family to go to college.
Focus on race is counterproductive in many ways. It ignores the real issue in the vast majority of cases, culture. It gives aid and comfort to real racists by validating their viewpoint that "race is everything." It makes attempts to rectify past abuses or to give those who have started in difficult circumstances a leg up much more difficult by bringing in a completely seperate issue, race, which is loaded with political and emotional meanings that often have very little to do with one another or the problem at hand.
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C0ckney
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Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:29
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quote:
Never made any secret of that fact. What, white people can't criticize other white people or recognize white privilege? |
it wasn't so much what you said but the way in which you said it. if i'd written 'both my contract law class and public law class at law school were very much enriched by having hardly any niggers, pakis, chincs or other assorted wogs and darkies in them...a class filled with middle class whites was much better' what do you think the reaction would have been?
quote:
Not my point. My point is that merit as it is measured is fairly subjective (grades) or utterly pointless (standardized test scores). 'Merit' as it is typically defined, despite the dress up game right wingers play by using numbers, is not all its cracked up to be. SO don't scream about merit as though diversity goals are some how wrongfully intruding on something sacrosanct. |
well if that is the case then how else are you supposed to measure academic performance, which after all, should be the primary consideration when deciding who gets in and who doesn't.
i do see 'diversity goals' as something wrongfully intruding on something sacrosanct, that is, fairness and equal opportunity. i still fail to see how you tackle 'racism' by giving advantages to one race over another.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:29
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quote:
I don't like saying I'm against affirmitive action, because I'm getting tired of being called a racist.
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Pre-empt the attack by telling people why you are against. Black people should not need a 'quota' in order to succeed. The longer we have a quota, the less black people are going to improve in order to meet the requiremenets of the best universities.
AA policies themselves are inherently racist because they assume that blacks need points in order to succeed, and they discriminate on the basis of race.
Yes there are problems with inclusion, but is the solution AA? AA will only perpetuate the idea that a black man can't quite hold a candle to a white man.
Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 24-06-2003 at 06:01
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Caligastia
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I propose a change to the term 'wigger'. From now on they will be called 'cracker blacks'.
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The Templar
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People's Republic of the East Village
Oct 2001
time: 00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
Please don't misabuse the term cracker by using it as a cheap racial epithet. The word has several useful meanings, none of which are well-served by being associated with the sort of scum who would use this word as an epithet. |
The term derives from white overseers cracking their whips.
quote:
White Privilege. It's good to see you've been paying attention in all those racist indoctrination classes at the Uni. With any luck you should be completely incapable of contributing to the common weal by the time you graduate, and will spend your time instead whipping up controversies along racial, cultural, class and gender lines for fun and profit. |
Ooooh! and what do you do that's so damn culturally significant?
quote:
It's amazing that with all those centuries of White Privilege that my grandmother had to quit school in the 8th grade in order to pick cotton for food. If only the authorities in Oklahoma were more efficient in their stealing of hundreds of billions of dollars worth of black labor, perhaps my grandmother could have been the first in the family to go to college. |
Well, your grandmother at least had the privilege of not being massacred in the black section of Tulsa, didn't she? She at least got to 8th grade back then, didn't she?
quote:
Focus on race is counterproductive in many ways. It ignores the real issue in the vast majority of cases, culture. It gives aid and comfort to real racists by validating their viewpoint that "race is everything." It makes attempts to rectify past abuses or to give those who have started in difficult circumstances a leg up much more difficult by bringing in a completely seperate issue, race, which is loaded with political and emotional meanings that often have very little to do with one another or the problem at hand. |
Great! More blaming the victim. Look, if you are part of a group that is constantly made aware of your race everyday - then yes, race matters. Had you said class was the real issue, you would have been closer to the truth. Both race and class are issues in the contemporary US, and always have been (hence your grandmother's predicament)
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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Imran,
quote:
You can't see how government has a compelling interest in diversity in education? |
Nope. I just don't see why diversity is important. Diversity can even be a negative thing - in my case, for example, I work a LOT better with people like me and get a lot more done, and am a lot more productive, than I would be if you put me with a black guy from the ghetto, a Chinese immigrant, and an illegal alien from Mexico.
Templar,
First of all, if it's OK for you to say cracker, then what word do you think it's OK for me to say? I'll give you a hint, it starts with an "n".
quote:
Race is very much an issue in the US - even if it isn't to you. |
This doesn't mean it should enter into legal thinking, nor does it mean that it should be considered.
quote:
The law has historically disadvantaged several minorites for hundreds of years. |
Isn't that cute....of course, these college students haven't been personally affected by these laws, and you know what, if you want to argue the point, you might even say that they are BETTER OFF because their ancestors were slaves. That is, they are better off here than they would be in Zimbabwe or Sierra Leone, or whatever. This isn't to say that slavery or discrimination is right, obviously, but the fact remains that if your average black American was instead a black African, odds are he or she would be worse off.
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Moreover, because race is an issue in general - especially for every minority who gets questioned by a cop for no discernable reason other than they "match a description". |
I'm no fan of cops, either, as anyone here can tell you.
quote:
Both my property class and criminal law class at law school were very much enriched by a strong minority presence - black, hipanic, and asian. |
Ah, so you think it's important to hear different viewpoints. I agree. Does this mean all viewpoints are equally right or valid? No. Does this mean that schools should discriminate in order to get different viewpoints? No.
Think of it like this. If someone isn't smart enough to get into school based on merit, odds are that their viewpoint is silly, and frankly I'd rather not waste me time either listening to it or shooting it down.
quote:
Now they get a slight advantage. Boo hoo! If your cracker ass can't overcome that slight advantage after benefiting from years of white privilege, you don't belong in a top school. |
I don't belong in a top school? They're the ones who couldn't make the grades in the first place 
I made about a 1400 on my SAT and graduated 9th in my class with close to a 4.0 in high school. I think that qualifies me as meriting entrance into most universities - although there are certainly exceptions to this, and I'll be the first to admit it.
Now, someone who made a 840 on their SAT and graduated in the bottom half of their class probably doesn't belong anywhere close to the same school that I do, based upon simple merit.
But now, with affirmitive action, this person has a shot at being in class with me. Yay, I get to hear the viewpoint of someone who's combined SAT score was only a bit higher than my VERBAL SAT score. Oh well, at least I'll get to have fun shooting down their arguments.
quote:
And what the hell is "merit" anyway? A score on a single standardized test? You spend years preparing for higher/professional education and it all comes down to an SAT 2 or LSAT score? Oh yeah, that's a real measure of merit! |
In terms of education? Absolutely that's a measure of merit. Personally, though, I think we should take IQs into account, and give preference to people with higher IQs without looking at race, grades, or anything else. That way, if you deserve, based upon your intelligence, to go to an Ivy League school, then you can get into one, and if you deserve, based on your intelligence, to graduate community college, then you can do that.
Let's bring up my SAT scores and high school GPA/graduating position again. Are you seriously telling me that because of those things, I don't merit entrance into a better school than someone who did worse than me?
But that's OK, I'll admit this isn't perfect. It's certainly a lot better than race based admissions, but on the other hand, IQ-based admissions, in conjunction with grades would be a lot better. This way, universities can let students in who a)have the ability to do well, and b)have shown the drive to do well. Can we all agree that would be the best way?
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Templar
The term derives from white overseers cracking their whips. |
Your ignorance on this subject is boundless. It is a term that was originally applied to Scotch-Irish inhabitants of the Appalachian region (where you will note there were very few slaves) who ate cracked corn and / or used it to make whisky. (Hence the Jimmy Crack Corn song, where the master gets drunk, falls and kills himself, and the slave "don't care".)
quote:
Originally posted by The Templar
Ooooh! and what do you do that's so damn culturally significant? |
I work in a hospital, which at least isn't a destructive / wasteful occupation.
quote:
Originally posted by The Templar
Well, your grandmother at least had the privilege of not being massacred in the black section of Tulsa, didn't she? She at least got to 8th grade back then, didn't she? |
Hooboy! I guess we should be thanking our lucky stars that she wasn't killed off in the holocaust either for her Indian heritage, nor was she massacred in Cambodia during the time of the Khmer Rouge. That reminds me of those christians who have just had their trailer destroyed (with all of their possessions) by a tornado, but who nonetheless are busy thanking god for preserving them. It never occurs to them that their god was ultimately responsible for the tornado in the first place.
quote:
Originally posted by The Templar
Great! More blaming the victim. Look, if you are part of a group that is constantly made aware of your race everyday - then yes, race matters. Had you said class was the real issue, you would have been closer to the truth. Both race and class are issues in the contemporary US, and always have been (hence your grandmother's predicament) |
Read again. Where am I blaming the victim? This is your idea of a rebuttal? Race matters to racists, and the less race matters the fewer racists there will be, and we can get back to hating one another for our cultural differences which at least are based on values which are adopted freely, arguable and mutable.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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*BUMP*
Anyone else have anything to say here?
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:29
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After a couple of days of trying to find out exactly what this means from the media and getting nowhere, I get the feeling that it means more of the same. More lawsuits, more tension and of course, more discrimination. I'm very dissappointed in the court for this one, especially after the long buildup. I was hoping for something along the lines of:
"People of the United States, our long national nightmare is over! From this day forward we will not accept anyone judging another person by their heritage alone in the public sphere. We have restored the constitution so that it means what it says, and not what some perhaps well-meaning but short-sighted and undisciplined people want it to mean. The way here is clear, but not without some tough going. We are going to have to be more direct in our interations as well as more sensitive. We have to build some sort of consensus as to what we want in a society aside from a lack of focus on what has divided us for centuries. But every American alive today can be proud of the fact that they were part of this generation, the generation that finally closed the door to race and racism in government. With the perserverence I know we are capable of, we will see to it that the door of race and racism can never be opened again, and that our government will never again be able to be used as an agent of these ideas. We have gone from being a nation enthralled by racists, to a nation enthralled by race, until today. From now on we shall strive to live up to the words of Martin Luther King, and judge each man according to the content of his character. Thank you."
Instead we get smarmy self-congratulations from academic types on talking head shows. None of them seems to appreciate the fact that the law that allows you to discriminate against whites and asians to balance out the surprisingly stubborn and deep lack of academic achievement in the black community opens the door to some rather more unpleasant race based laws in the future.
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24-06-2003 03:54
Grades? Aside from the fact no institution ever really trusts another institutions grades (due to rampant inflation) most grades are inherently subjective. Even math and science (if you are giving partial credit on problems or asking theoretical questions) admit a strong subjective factor. So where is the merit? Come on all you crackers crying about merit, give it a definition! 
, and blew away the points given for national leadership and personal achievements. This is kind of blurry, but it gives you an idea. 
. I just say that to appear more caring. People have called me uncaring, and I truelly do care about the welfare of minorities. 
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