25-06-2003 06:04									#31
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quote: and the old forms don't hold much attraction to restless modern youth.

Well, I like scupture.

I'd rather see some of these than go to the usual hollywood movies that are churned out.

So where do I fit?

	25-06-2003 06:13									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer i hope i made my point...

Nope. Your examples show your bias. You choose an exquisite piece of older art, but an unknown piece of modern art. Why not compare with a piece of modern art that is generally regarded as genius?

Craftsmanship and hard work are one thing, but they do not necessarily make great art. Art is first and foremost about expression. While a finely-detailed ship model that is accurate down to the rivet might be result of incredible attention to detail, skill and hard work, it doesn't make the model have artistic value. Think of the models used in Titanic. They meet all the criteria you listed, but were then used as movie props, blown apart, etc. They weren't art in the highest sense.

Would you disparage Monet? Picasso? Pollock? I think the artistic merit of "Geurnica" is on the same level as anything done by any artist. Who are you to judge that it isn't?

I'd encourage you to visit a modern art gallery. At least do some detailed research into modern art with an open mind before you make such generalizations.

	25-06-2003 06:18									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Why not compare with a piece of modern art that is generally regarded as genius?

Like this?

	25-06-2003 06:23									#34
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Like this?

Certainly. What's wrong with Dali?

	25-06-2003 06:27									#35
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Dali is a god. Personally, if I could have a painting of any genre, it'd be pop-art (I'm a huge Lichtenstein fan). But if I wanted sculpture, I'd want something older - that one of Moses is great.

	25-06-2003 06:33									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov What's wrong with Dali?

Nothing. Why would you even suggest such a thing?

	25-06-2003 06:47									#37
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Whatever happened to real art?

It went the way of real work.

	25-06-2003 06:56									#38
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quote: I've never considered pretty pictures to be art. For me, art has to have some meaning, or invoke emotions or thoughts. Not just "aw, that's pretty".

What if George Orwell, instead of writing 1984, just wrote a pamphlet saying "totalitarianism is bad, stay away from it"? What if T.S. Eliot, instead of writing The Wasteland, had written some essay about modern culture? Art isn't just prettiness and it isn't just message. It's combining prettiness and message into a form where they both reinforce one another and present a message beyond what you can put into words (at least not prose). A lot of modern art seems to me like someone thinks something like "I'm going to create something that makes the statement I Don't Like Crass Commercialism", and then they make that statement into some pseudo-artistic form like that all-green canvas, which is meant to make exactly the statement "I Don't Like Crass Commercialism", which means that all the time that that painting took beyond the amount of time it would have taken for the artist to go onto the street and say "Hey everyone, I don't like crass commercialism!" is wasted. The only difference between the two is that you probably won't understand that's what the painting is trying to say unless someone tells you. If a painting doesn't make you feel anything at all, like that red monstrosity Speer posted, then it can't convey any message except what the art gallery person tells you it's there conveying. (Maybe somewhere in Paris there is a man who will one day be moved to tears by the revelation the beautiful red sculpture gives him about the bitterness of life. I don't know. I doubt it.)

Of course, there are some really brilliant modern artists, but when random jumbles with brilliant meanings behind them sell for millions, it's pretty obvious that somewhere along the line people are just going paint the jumbles, forget the hard part about the meaning, and con it off on the rest of us for those millions of dollars, which it seems a lot of people are doing.

	25-06-2003 07:05									#39
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quote: Would you disparage Monet? Picasso? Pollock?

How dare you mention Jackson Pollock in the same breath as Monet and Picasso?

	25-06-2003 07:14									#40
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Jackson Pollock is pretty damn good.

	25-06-2003 07:20									#41
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Pollock is garbage. It's an insult to real artists like Monet and Picasso to lump him in with them, IMO.

	25-06-2003 07:23									#42
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Albert, Art is very subjective, that is something you must understand first.


If you believe that art must be hard to create, then you do not understand what art actually means.


What I am seeing here is that YOU prefer hard work and patience into creating an art piece. However, others may find their liking in simplicity more than effort.

Art is the very thing that divides how each of us see the world. Without a diverse art, we are nothing but an equilibrium.

Art will make drastic changes throughout time, in the future, it will be holographic art or VR Art. But this does not mean that all forms of art will die out. No, artists today still create art the way artists did in ancient times, simply because that is the type of art they like.

I do not like that red sculpture either, but there are ppl out there who will.

Btw, I like Alex Ross's work too. He captures Superman in a really "Superman" kind of way.

	25-06-2003 08:25									#43
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Nothing. Why would you even suggest such a thing?

I didn't suggest it, AS did!

	25-06-2003 08:36									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Pollock is garbage. It's an insult to real artists like Monet and Picasso to lump him in with them, IMO.

Why? Why is Pollock somehow garbage where Picasso isn't?

I think Pollock's works have amazing color in them. I can't think of a better example of Abstract Expressionism. He was also responsible for putting American artists on the map in terms of the forefront of art. Until he hit the scene, America was scene as a backwater in the art world, full of anachronism. Pollock was the one who broke this stereotype and helped usher in a vibrant American modern art culture.

Is this garbage?

	25-06-2003 08:55									#45
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You would have to understand that in order to really be able to appreciate "art" you have to put yourself in the context of which the artistic piece was created.
Art in itself is a reflection of what the artist perceives through his
life and experiences, and its an expression of whatever is good or bad in it.
History is written by the conquerors and the ones that have more influence and means. Art history is as well written and preserved by those who so desire to keep it alive or hidden, but art is also commercial.
The reason why there are so many paintings and statues of kings and emperors and biblical figures is because they were the ones that commission the pieces of art.
In this day and age few pieces of art are "commissioned" and art is by itself morphed to go with the times.
If you believe the "art" that surrounds you is crappy. It is probably because the period you're living in is crappy as well.

	25-06-2003 08:57									#46
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I think Albrecht Durer had all these impressionists beat by four centuries... allegory all over the place...










thanks

	25-06-2003 09:02									#47
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If you're going to be snobish, you could at least post pics from the late 19th and 20th centuries. Something like Lautrec, Seurat, or Eakins. It'd help me while I'm studying for an art history test.

	25-06-2003 09:02									#48
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From what I see, what you admire is "technique". The bravery of modern art itself is that artists, in spite of having it, they decide that it may very well be pointless to express anything else than the feelings they may have at the moment of grabbing the brush.
That is why there is a difference between monet and pollock. they're different periods.
where monet is an early impressionist and pollock is grouped with abstract expressionism.

	25-06-2003 09:02									#49
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I used to teach all this crap, btw.

	25-06-2003 09:03									#50
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quote: Originally posted by LTEC! I used to teach all this crap, btw.

You evil person.

	25-06-2003 09:04									#51
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

	25-06-2003 09:10									#52
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Ok, now that i stopped laughing.
What is it you're having problems with to do your test?

	25-06-2003 09:12									#53
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Too many pieces to memorize and not enough interest in the subject. Some of them are interesting though. I like Le Grande Odalisque by Ingres.

	25-06-2003 09:13									#54
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LTEC!

Your sig is strangely appropriate for this entire thread.

	25-06-2003 09:16									#55
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what you have to do is relate the art piece to an event in history that interests you.
for example,
did you know that several impressionist painters lived together in arles because they had socialist inclinations and thought that they were expressing their political beliefs in doing so?
painters who did it?
and which paintings were produced in that period?

	25-06-2003 12:30									#56
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Albert has a point here, I'm not sure if he is expressing it properly.

Art should be recognized by it being appreciated by a majority of people. So the more people that like it, the better it should be.

the problem with art in the U.S. is the elitist *******s who control the art industry. Things are considered art by a small group of snobs who have weird notions in their heads. And the pricing and wages the artist earns is based on that. I think the pricing should be related to how the majority of people feel about the art.

	25-06-2003 12:43									#57
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Dissident:

I was thinking that except by that logic, britney spears is very high art...

i just think art should be understandable to the common man... thats the point of art... expression and the average person can't pick up nothing from these abstract pictures.

	25-06-2003 12:57									#58
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well the jury is still out if modern music can be considered art.

I think it has to stand some test of time.

	25-06-2003 14:36									#59
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quote: And the pricing and wages the artist earns

Artists on high wages?

They only earn money when they sell something, it's not as if they're on a salary. Also, the industry is so much at the mercy of a whimsical and often illogical fashion that an artist can't have any kind of security in their income.

If you want to earn money in a creative field then being a musician, an actor or even a writer would be far more likely to get you big bucks than painting or sculpture (although it's still damn hard).

	25-06-2003 20:38									#60
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"i just think art should be understandable to the common man... thats the point of art... expression and the average person can't pick up nothing from these abstract pictures."

For someone who claims to be a representative of the people, you sure do underestimate them alot... I disagree.

I also disagree that it was Pollock who shifted the artistic credibility from Europe to America, but that's not a big deal.

I wonder what you think of Heironymus Bosch...