25-06-2003 20:49									#61
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 I also disagree that it was Pollock who shifted the artistic credibility from Europe to America, but that's not a big deal.

Thomas Eakins did more to shift the credibility than that hack Pollock.

	25-06-2003 21:17									#62
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Does this go for music too? Are we meant to mourn for Beethoven given the presence of all this rap ****?

	25-06-2003 21:38									#63
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Here's a classic. I couldn't find a picture of the full version of "Rock Drill" by Epstein- this is just the torso.

The full version, mounted 10 feet tall on it's drill, is chilling.

Attachment: rockdrill.jpg
This has been downloaded 110 time(s).

	25-06-2003 22:15									#64
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quote: Originally posted by LTEC! did you know that several impressionist painters lived together in arles because they had socialist inclinations and thought that they were expressing their political beliefs in doing so? painters who did it? and which paintings were produced in that period?

IIRC, Van Gogh, Gauguin, and Cezanne, at least. The three of them all got together one rainy afternoon to paint the same bowl of fruit still life. Interesting to see all three versions together.


(AS thanks high school French teacher who made us study French impressionists for six weeks.)

	25-06-2003 22:22									#65
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Early American painting is sooo underrated...
John Singleton Copley is one of my favorites.

	25-06-2003 22:39									#66
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i agree... i don't understand how things like chrissy caviar, ****-in-a-can, and "rubbish bag" are art...

	25-06-2003 23:40									#67
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Laz:

quote: Does this go for music too? Are we meant to mourn for Beethoven given the presence of all this rap ****?

what does that got to do with the fact that sculpture and painting went from photo-realistic and clear to understand to vague, abstract impressionism?

hell, rap would be true art just because of the fact that it is a return to the old ballads of the past before abstract free verse was created... not to mention the fact that it is very popular among the masses. by the standards i'm using to judge michaelangelo as better than modern art, rap is better than poetry and lyrical music of the past century


Monolith:

great picture. violent but beautiful painted... one question though... whys the guy in the water naked?


thanks

	25-06-2003 23:46									#68
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I guess anything can be considered art as long as it is properly labled.


My contribution in retro keboard art:

:::::::::<><><:::::::::<><>:::::
::::::::><><><...::::::::::::::::::
ROASTBEEFROASTBEEFROASTB
MUSTARDMUSTARDMUSTARDMU
LETTUCELETTUCELETTUCELECT
ISAIDHOLFTHEFREAKINMAYO!!!
TOMATOTOMATOTOMATOTOMA
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::<><
:::::::<><><><:::::::::::::::::::

I call it roast beef on olive loaf.

See art...


Crap!

	25-06-2003 23:57									#69
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ne'er mind.

	26-06-2003 00:09									#70
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Great art is universally appealing, or should be in some level. You may not like it, but you still look at it in fascination.

I just love the current Met exhibit on Manet/Velazquez, though it is too long: about 2 hours worth of looking.

My favorite, by Zubaran:



Also cool is their mesopotamain exhibit, which in geenral is my favorite type of art, that which is also archeology:

The Standard of Ur, circa 2500bc

	26-06-2003 00:14									#71
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"great picture. violent but beautiful painted... one question though... whys the guy in the water naked?"
The painting was based on the story "Watson and the Shark", and in that story he's naked for some reason...

Two quick questions for you:
What'd you think of Bosch?
Do you have any reaction at all to my belief that you're underestimating the perceptual talents of the common man?

Some cool stuff...

	26-06-2003 00:18									#72
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One last addition...

	26-06-2003 00:39									#73
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I'm not expecting people to spend years on some sculpture a-la Michaelangelo or something... But art has to come with at least SOME effort. And showing upside down urinals or whatever requires no effort.

	26-06-2003 01:46									#74
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Some of you are NOT GETTING IT.

From the dictionary:

=====
Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.
=====

So you see, you can't just say "Oh, that painting is art, but that upside down urinal is not". - This is against the very meaning of art.

I agree that it IS a HARD concept to understand, but it is important that you do at least try to.

	26-06-2003 05:40									#75
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quote: I wonder what you think of Heironymus Bosch...

Bosch is great. Completely insane, but great nonetheless.

	26-06-2003 09:00									#76
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Monolith:

this Bosch seems to be a nut... he seems to have got to the point where he'd just paint some crazy random things and call it art. when someone got to decipher a painting, it's not a good sign...

	26-06-2003 09:53									#77
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quote: Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.

How does this rule out my definition, earlier in that thread that art should recognise the ideal contained inside the real?

	26-06-2003 10:04									#78
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I'm not really talking of you obiwan18

	26-06-2003 11:18									#79
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"when someone got to decipher a painting, it's not a good sign..."

So are you saying that the best art is immediately apparent on first sight? Are you saying that you'd rather not have a piece of art be ambiguous, leaving you to take your own message from it? Are you saying that art should say "a + b = c, and that's what my painting means"? Am I correct in believing this is your modus operandi?

	26-06-2003 11:30									#80
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Monolith:

hell yeah... art is communication and what the artist is communicating should be clear... otherwise, they wasted their time

	26-06-2003 11:32									#81
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Art is communication, but you seem to want to stifle that communication - to let it only communicate one thing, for all people. Can't a painting be done by the artist, and say to the artist message A, but be seen by another and be interpreted as saying B? Is that so terrible?

And let's not even get into aesthetics... the most subjective of all arguments!

	26-06-2003 11:38									#82
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Monolith:

that different interpretation nonsense is bullshit. back in the turn of the century, rich snobs wanted to prove their superiority over the industrial workers who were in the cities, the place where all the old art was... so they decided to create their own art that would not be easily understood... only they would 'understand' it; when it fact their understanding was just a facade to pretend that they were intellectuals superior to the common man... so **** this multiple meaning nonsense...

	26-06-2003 11:48									#83
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Interesting. I was under the impression the only thing the rich were interested in was making more money. Of course, you claim that this plot against the common man began in the industrial revolution. Bosch, however, an artist who confounded you, did his work in the medieval ages. You seem to think that the rich have this amazing overbearing had on the art world. This could not be more false - the art community is a very insular place, where critical approval means everything and patronage by the wealthy is a way of simply paying the bills.

You know what the wealthy have always wanted the most of? Portraits. That's how all those artists were able to paint - by decorating rich folks' homes with rich peoples' faces. And of course, these painting contain NO ambiguity. Theory like doughnut - has hole.

Besides, folk art has always been up for interpretation - the TRUE art of the people. You seem to have this knight in shining armor complex - that your some amazing exposer of injustices. The people can look after themselves occasionally, you know.

	26-06-2003 11:54									#84
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monolith:

A UCLA professor did this show called the history of western civilization and when he got to the late 19th and early 20th century, he talked about how art became this play-thing for the rich that was dominated by plenty of con artists who passed off garbage as art, claiming that it had some profound meaning... the wealthy, obsessed with wanting to seem intellectual, claimed it had a dozen different interpretations and of course, the poor man in the factory never saw these paintings and if he did, he would see a mess


as for bosch... he clearly has technical talent in drawing and painting... but it makes no sense. at least with Durer you could figure it out pretty easy

	26-06-2003 12:00									#85
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Well of course there's alot of crap out there that the wealthy buy up in bundles! There always has been! But that doesn't mean that incredible art has stopped being produced!

So one Professor did one show... big deal. Hell, a show came to my college this year - art from Brazil - and it was FANTASTIC. Utterly mind blowing. The sketches they brought in from the renaissance earlier in the year didn't hold a candle to it...

What can I say, other then that I disagree, and on almost all counts!

	26-06-2003 13:36									#86
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What angers me is the government funding modern art recieves.

If some wealthy collector wants to pay for a bunch of stuff with made up meanings assigned to it, let him.

But DO NOT use tax dollars to buy works such as those bought by the Canadian National Gallery!!

The most famous was Voice of Fire (three vertical bars on a canvas), 10s of millions of tax dollars.

But the latest is just the elitist curator rubbing the publics noses...

Thirty Years of Crap in Contemporary Art

Yes, the 'artist' has bottled his fecal matter in jars and sold the lot for millions of PUBLIC dollars. As a commentary on the sad state of modern art no less.

www.cbc.ca the art section.

Only Beauty is Truth

	26-06-2003 20:21									#87
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quote: Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.

how is "rubbish bag" doing any of those things?
or "chrissy caviar"?

	26-06-2003 20:36									#88
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Well the rubbish bag itself was designed by someone.

Then if you wanted to use it in an art piece, you simply alter the appearance of it, or imitate it - but change it slightly.


I don't know Chrissy Caviar

	26-06-2003 21:00									#89
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chrissy caviar.

i'm more willing to accept justification for chrissy caviar, because that at least involved quite a bit of effort and pain.

however, rubbish bag i can't buy. yes, the trash bag was designed by someone else. but to take a regular trash bag, completely empty, and then put it on display as art...?

	26-06-2003 21:01									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker But the latest is just the elitist curator rubbing the publics noses... Thirty Years of Crap in Contemporary Art Yes, the 'artist' has bottled his fecal matter in jars and sold the lot for millions of PUBLIC dollars.

Has there been any move to have him fired?