26-06-2003 12:33									#1
	Your thoughts on U.S. immigration policy Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Okay the conservatives are in a hissy fit. First a 6 year old girl is raped by a illegal immigrant with a criminal felony record. Now a young police officer is gunned down by an illegal alien- with some sort of record- I'm not sure if is felony's.

In any case there are calls to step up immigration policty. Even militarization of the borders. But that will never happend because the politicians need the votes.

Or should we have completely open borders?

	26-06-2003 12:45									#2
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we should invade and take over mexico. sure at first the mexicans will suck. but eventually we can absorb them. then we only have to defend a small amt of land from illegal immigrants from the south!

and then there's canada. we could invade that too. that'd be pretty seamless, just get rid of health care.

	26-06-2003 12:55									#3
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Good Heavens!

People want to move to the US?

	26-06-2003 13:33									#4
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When we do it, it's called racism. We the US does it, it's called protecting and the laws .

	26-06-2003 13:59									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka When we do it, it's called racism. We the US does it, it's called protecting and the laws .

we don't do much of it so I wouldn't worry.

	26-06-2003 14:07									#6
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At the risk of making a serious post in a thread that looks a bit dodgy at the moment...

Yes, the U.S. has to get a grip on its population. I'm afraid that that means some sort of identity proof that is difficult to impossible to circumvent. After that it is simply a matter of deporting people who work here illegally and jailing those who hire them, ruthlessly. I see no reason to continue trying to compromise with those who come here illegally and take the space of those who we might wish to allow here legally.

	26-06-2003 15:52									#7
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A dumb eurocom question. What is the current US immigration policy?

	26-06-2003 16:17									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Good Heavens! People want to move to the US?

yeah me.

current policy, seems to be let everyone but me in.

	26-06-2003 16:29									#9
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I feel the same. They only want the baddies there, and not us, the good guys.

	26-06-2003 17:55									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander At the risk of making a serious post in a thread that looks a bit dodgy at the moment...

We'll just have to raise the tone an little

quote: After that it is simply a matter of deporting people who work here illegally and jailing those who hire them, ruthlessly.

I can prove that I have the right to work here but unless one has a US passport how would you prove your citizenship? What you suggest would require a national ID card. Passing the laws for a national ID will take many years to get done, if ever, there's just too much opposition to the idea.

	26-06-2003 18:05									#11
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I can prove that I have the right to work here but unless one has a US passport how would you prove your citizenship? What you suggest would require a national ID card. Passing the laws for a national ID will take many years to get done, if ever, there's just too much opposition to the idea.

The national ID card backed by biometrics is the way to go. There is no constitutional issue as I see it, all it will take is a majority in congress and no veto. Where there's a will there's a way. A strong majority of Americans want to crack down on immigration abuse, it simply remains for someone to convince them that this is the way.

	26-06-2003 20:20									#12
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I don't believe in immigration, it's a sin. Sinners must be punished.

	26-06-2003 21:47									#13
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Yes, the U.S. has to get a grip on its population.

Fat chance. It would require a more permissive and transparent immigration policy. Which brings us to...

A dumb eurocom question. What is the current US immigration policy?

We don't really have one. Or it is purposely obscured. The overall numbers seem purposely obscured as well. The result of this melange of contradictions and hush-hush is that we have about 10 million illegal aliens. 1-2 million people immigrate each year.

	26-06-2003 22:51									#14
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US immigration policy currently seems, to me at least, to favor temporary workers rather than new permanent residents. People talk about the US being a tough place to immigrate to, and I guess it sort of is, but its very easy to get a temporary work visa. I think the US likes having immigrants coming in, legal or illegal, because they generally fill the menial, low paying, laborious or tedial jobs that the average American doesn't want to do. An added benefit with illegals is that since they're paid under the table, minimum wage doesn't apply to them, so the employer saves big money and can operate at a higher capacity than his initial investment would suggest. Illegal immigrants do the US a service.

Of course I'm not saying its justified if they're being treated cruely or beaten or whatever. Thats a totally different issue.

Generally I'm for laxed border policy all around in all countries because I think all they do is impede the free movement of labor.

	26-06-2003 22:58									#15
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The Us has no significant population problems. We are not particualrly high of the list of population per square mile and large sections of this country have extremely low population desities. Also, illegals don't take the place of anyone. The goverment does not lower the number of legal immigrants it allows in on the basis of how many illegals they think are in the country. All Illegals are extra, on top of legal immigrants.

	26-06-2003 23:02									#16
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Most people demand strcit enforcement of the borders, but if it happened, they would then complain about the rising pirce of hotels, restaurant meas, and food at the supermarket.

The US sustains its level fo wealth by importing large amounts of goods, resources, people and capital.

	26-06-2003 23:05									#17
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When the US expells illegal immigrants and controls their border, it's called Homeland Security. When Yugoslavia does it, it's called genocide.

I believe in open borders, but think that we should catalogue every person in this country. The best way to do it would be to make the system fast so that people won't need to sneak into the country. This way, they can pay TAXES!!!

Allowing open borders and cataloging everyone is an opprotunity to increase government revenues. Also, I think the military should offer some sort of program where immigrants can serve for a few years and get instant citizenship.

Immigration makes us stronger. Shutting it off would only hurt us. Terrorists and other criminal elements will get into the country no matter what. It's not worth cutting off the positive elements to get rid of the negative. We should let them all in and deal with them in different ways.

	27-06-2003 11:29									#18
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Immigration is the way to go right now. Without a doubt. There are too many jobs to fill.

but you would think eventually they would run out of jobs. I suppose as long as the economy continues to grow at a certain rate, we will always create more service jobs.

But here's the problem.

I'm going to come right out and say what no one has the balls to say. No one wants to say it, because they're afraid of being called a racist.

Illegal immigration is the main reason California is 38 billion dollars in debt. It is also the reason my city is struggling.

First lets deal with health care. They have none. They use the emergency rooms as health care. This causes overworked emergency room doctors who make mistakes because of it. And then they get sued for making mistakes. The illegal aliens do not pay their emergency room bills. Those bill are passed on to insurance companies in "other" costs. Thus insurance rates are rising very fast now.

Schools. Well every illegal alien is entitled to a free education. But in my state we are required to teach in Spanish increasing the number of teachers we require. Our schools are broke. They have no money- and our schools are the worst in the nation. While most of that problem is due to poor management (this is evidenced by the fact New York City Schools are good despite illegal immigrants).

Other social services. Well these state goverment programs are struggling.

There are some ways to fix this. Make everyone a citizen, or kick illegal immigrants out, or find a way to tax illegal immigrants.

so either go open borders making everyone in the world a citizen upon entry, or put military on the borders. It's like the saying: **** or get off the pot.

But the problem is nothing will change. If they take a hard line they will be accused of being racist and lose votes in elections. If they make open borders and make everyone a citizen, the conservatives will throw a fit.

	27-06-2003 11:31									#19
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Ultimately, I want open borders, but only when we also do away with social programs and any sort of social safety net.

	27-06-2003 12:56									#20
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My goal is to stop people travelling and emigrating.

May sound funny coming from a man born in New York and living in Australia, but I don't think it's good on principle.

	27-06-2003 14:59									#21
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The Us has no significant population problems. We are not particualrly high of the list of population per square mile and large sections of this country have extremely low population desities. Also, illegals don't take the place of anyone. The goverment does not lower the number of legal immigrants it allows in on the basis of how many illegals they think are in the country. All Illegals are extra, on top of legal immigrants.

And I have no significant money problems, my $1,000,000 of debt isn't due until monday. Seriously, look ahead 20 or more years, once all of the illegals who have stayed have had their kids (who will be U.S. citizens) and let the flow continue. Perhaps that seems like a long time to you, but I'm 42 years old and have seen the population of the U.S. rise by about 50% in my lifetime. There are neighborhoods where I used to play in forests as a kid.

As for illegals taking someone else's place, yes they do. Sure there is no mechanism for this, we have no idea how many illegals are here, or where they are etc. But illegals eat up the willingness of many people to allow greater numbers of legal immigrants, which they at least can do something about.

	27-06-2003 15:05									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Sava When the US expells illegal immigrants and controls their border, it's called Homeland Security. When Yugoslavia does it, it's called genocide. I believe in open borders, but think that we should catalogue every person in this country. The best way to do it would be to make the system fast so that people won't need to sneak into the country. This way, they can pay TAXES!!! Allowing open borders and cataloging everyone is an opprotunity to increase government revenues. Also, I think the military should offer some sort of program where immigrants can serve for a few years and get instant citizenship. Immigration makes us stronger. Shutting it off would only hurt us. Terrorists and other criminal elements will get into the country no matter what. It's not worth cutting off the positive elements to get rid of the negative. We should let them all in and deal with them in different ways.

What I am advocating is simply getting a handle on who is here and what they are doing here, not for shutting down the borders to any and everyone. Once that mechanism is in place we can decide what sort of policies we want to achieve as needed. As for the criminals and terrorists, this sort of system will make it more difficult / expensive for them to operate here, which will reduce their activities at the margins, perhaps significantly.

	27-06-2003 15:23									#23
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I believe the military should be used to enforce border security- and kick illegals out.

	27-06-2003 15:54									#24
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What I am advocating is simply getting a handle on who is here and what they are doing here, not for shutting down the borders to any and everyone. Once that mechanism is in place we can decide what sort of policies we want to achieve as needed. As for the criminals and terrorists, this sort of system will make it more difficult / expensive for them to operate here, which will reduce their activities at the margins, perhaps significantly.

You're not simply advocating that. It appears that you are advocating that plus an overall reduction in the number of immigrants, unless you propose to do away with anti-immigration policies and quotas already in place. The two positions are contradictions in reality in American society.

The fact remains that the market for jobs, ideas and way of life produces more immigrants than what about half of the American people want. But as with fighting all market forces, fighting immigration in the US is a study in futility.

Perhaps that seems like a long time to you, but I'm 42 years old and have seen the population of the U.S. rise by about 50% in my lifetime. There are neighborhoods where I used to play in forests as a kid.

Those neighborhoods aren't exactly a representative sample. Large swaths of our rural areas are also being depopulated at the same time.

Last edited by DanS on 27-06-2003 at 16:14

	27-06-2003 16:45									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Even militarization of the borders. But that will never happend because the politicians need the votes.

The votes of the immigrants? They aren't citizens, and don't vote.

	27-06-2003 17:18									#26
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quote: Originally posted by DanS What I am advocating is simply getting a handle on who is here and what they are doing here, not for shutting down the borders to any and everyone. Once that mechanism is in place we can decide what sort of policies we want to achieve as needed. As for the criminals and terrorists, this sort of system will make it more difficult / expensive for them to operate here, which will reduce their activities at the margins, perhaps significantly. You're not simply advocating that. It appears that you are advocating that plus an overall reduction in the number of immigrants, unless you propose to do away with anti-immigration policies and quotas already in place. The two positions are contradictions in reality in American society. The fact remains that the market for jobs, ideas and way of life produces more immigrants than what about half of the American people want. But as with fighting all market forces, fighting immigration in the US is a study in futility.

I'd like to see a huge reduction in illegal immigration and a moderate increase in legal immigration at the moment. I'd like to have a system in place that gives American citizens the ability to have more control over who is here. I'd prefer a cheaper system that doesn't focus as much on border security, but much more effectively on illegal employment, with serious penalties for the employer seriously enforced.

quote: Originally posted by DanS Perhaps that seems like a long time to you, but I'm 42 years old and have seen the population of the U.S. rise by about 50% in my lifetime. There are neighborhoods where I used to play in forests as a kid. Those neighborhoods aren't exactly a representative sample. Large swaths of our rural areas are also being depopulated at the same time.

Oh, so we get something for nothing eh? I guess we'll just have to wait a few decades until those abandoned wastelands turn into forest. How's this for a representative sample:

U.S. population in 1960: 179,322,000

U.S. population in 2000: 288,369,000

	27-06-2003 18:03									#27
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I'd like to see a huge reduction in illegal immigration and a moderate increase in legal immigration at the moment.

I think that policy is unrealistic. It may be what you want to see, but no politician is going to give that to you, or going to be able to give that to you. The vast majority of people are going to be able to come to the US and remain in the US no matter the policies. It's just the way our country is built.

Oh, so we get something for nothing eh?

No, we (should) get higher density living. That's all.

Last edited by DanS on 27-06-2003 at 18:09

	28-06-2003 02:06									#28
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You want to stop illegal immigration, eh? Help Mexico with its social problems then. Notice how there isn't a huge rush of Canuckistani illegal immigrants in the Northern States.

Immigration is hard work. People wouldn't do it if they had a good alternative.

	28-06-2003 04:42									#29
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The world population has doubled since 1960. The Us is simply moving along with a trend. Only a few places have yet to double their 1960 pop. Many have gone far beyond a 100% rise. Given how low US density is, the Us can more than handle 350 million people without problems. We have more forest land today than in 1900, technology has solved many issues. If your locallity has grown, that is porbalby due to shifts in population more than just growth. Look at hom amny eastern cities have had their pops. cut in half.

Diss: I don;t think illgelas are the cause of Cali's budget mess. Cali politicians are. They increased spending and cut taxes all during the 90's. They set themselves up for a fall. 49 of 50 states have budget nightmares coming up.

	28-06-2003 04:50									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Sava When the US expells illegal immigrants and controls their border, it's called Homeland Security. When Yugoslavia does it, it's called genocide.

Eh? The former Yugoslavia (now Serbia & Montenegro) expelled 100s of 1000s of people who had been born and raised in Kosovo. The fact that they spoke Albanian and were Muslim made them stand out a little. "Ethnic cleansing" are the words you are looking for - and yes, it was just that.

The fact they shot anyone who disagreed and torched communities is whats it genocide.