26-06-2003 21:46									#1
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Judge Allows Disabled Florida Woman to Have Baby

by Steven Ertelt
LifeNews.com Editor
June 25, 2003

Orlando, FL (LifeNews.com) -- A Florida judge has allowed a severely mentally disabled rape victim to carry her baby to term. The woman has been at the center of a national abortion debate starting when pro-life Gov. Jeb Bush requested a guardian for the woman's unborn child.

Circuit Judge Lawrence Kirkwood approved a medical plan for the woman, known as J.D.S. in court records, that allows her to have her baby. The plan was recommended by the woman's court-appointed guardian, Patti Jarrell.

"It is the guardian's belief that completing the pregnancy/delivering the child is in J.D.S.'s best interest,'' Jarrell wrote in a report to the judge. The woman is six months pregnant.

The doctors found that she was in good health and that her pregnancy was "unremarkable,'' Jarrell wrote in the report. Two sonograms indicate no obvious abnormalities, Jarrell said. Doctors recently took J.D.S. off some prescription medications.

Pro-life organizations rejoiced at the news.

"We are very happy that the judge ruled in favor of life for JDS' unborn child," Laura Eschaverria, a spokesperson for National Right to Life told LifeNews.com. "We commend Governor Bush for his desire to appoint a guardian for this baby and we believe that, as a result of todays decision, this child will be able to enjoy a very full life."

A representatrive of Florida Right to Life agreed and the organization submitted an amicuis brief along with the Liberty Counsel, a pro-life legal group, and the Christian Coalition of Florida.

"This woman has been assaulted once and we are pleased that she will not be assaulted again by the invasion of abortion," said FRTL's Robin Hoffman.

The judge has rejected several times requests that a guardian be appointed for the fetus. "There is no basis in the statutes or case law for appointment of a guardian for a fetus,'' Kirkwood wrote earlier this month.

The woman's attacker has been unable to be identified because she was unable to consent for a DNA test until a guardian could be appointed for her.

Now, if she can't consent for a DNA test, why could she consent for an abortion? That always puzzled me.
Anyways, good news for once.

	26-06-2003 22:03									#2
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Was there ever any question of her having an abortion?

	26-06-2003 22:05									#3
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I think someone mentioned it as an option.

	26-06-2003 22:05									#4
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But now she won't be.

	26-06-2003 22:08									#5
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What does the woman want?

	26-06-2003 22:09									#6
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Isn't this a bit of a non-story?

Could have been retitled "Judge rejects rather bizarre proposal by odd politician".

	26-06-2003 22:10									#7
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I just read the name of your town as "Burnbaby, British Columbia", Obiwan!

	26-06-2003 22:13									#8
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http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/30/f...fetus.guardian/

From CNN.com

A distinct possibility, because

"In that case, the young woman's doctor told the court that his patient's life could be in danger and the baby might be deformed or possibly die if it was carried to term. Other doctors disagreed."

So we didn't know until today whether she would or she wouldn't.

	26-06-2003 22:17									#9
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Something can still go wrong. Carrying a fetus to term is still more dangerous than abortion. I think two considerations need to be made: what does the woman want and what is in her best interests.

BTW, who is going to be raising the child?

	26-06-2003 22:17									#10
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quote: Burnbaby, British Columbia", Obiwan!

That's why I have prolifer profiler on my location sig.

quote: What does the woman want?

Che:
How could she tell us? That's why we need informed consent, which is just not possible in this case.

	26-06-2003 22:17									#11
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Why did she need a guardian? Were they afraid that someone my try to sneak up on her with a coat hanger before anyone was the wiser.

	26-06-2003 22:21									#12
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DaShi:

She requires a guardian because she isn't capable of making the decision herself.

Che:

quote: Carrying a fetus to term is still more dangerous than abortion.

The guardian doesn't seem to think so. What makes you think abortion less dangerous? There are plenty of complications.

quote: BTW, who is going to be raising the child?

Put up for adoption. I'm sure someone will be willing to help, especially because of the rape.

	26-06-2003 22:25									#13
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Something can still go wrong. Carrying a fetus to term is still more dangerous than abortion. I think two considerations need to be made: what does the woman want and what is in her best interests.

I think that a very important interest is can the baby lead a normal life. Lately, I've become very split over abortion.

	26-06-2003 22:26									#14
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 The guardian doesn't seem to think so. What makes you think abortion less dangerous? There are plenty of complications.

The simple fact that a woman who carries a fetus to term is more likely to die as a result than a woman who has an abortion. More women die per thousand childbirths than women die per thousand abortions.

And that doesn't even take into consideration the mere fact of pregnacy puts a woman at her greatest risk of being murdered (though I don't think that's a real risk in this case).

	26-06-2003 22:35									#15
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quote: More women die per thousand childbirths than women die per thousand abortions.

Source?

	26-06-2003 22:48									#16
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That's true, obiwan.

	26-06-2003 22:51									#17
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Will they provide a guardian for the baby after it is born?

	26-06-2003 22:54									#18
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara BTW, who is going to be raising the child?

If Jeb Bush is still governor of Florida then I guess he carries the can. Only guessing here.

Shame the clueless ****wit has already lost track of 100s of children in care.

Or didn't he make re-election? Iis the new governor any better with kids?

	26-06-2003 23:22									#19
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quote: That's true, obiwan.

So I have to show my hand first?

All right.

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/SFL/abortion_policy.htm

quote: But more important is the fact that, included in maternal mortality, are all deaths from induced abortions and ectopic pregnancies. Included also in maternal mortality are all women who die while pregnant from almost any cause that is in any way related to pregnancy.

Therefore, it is impossible for the maternal mortality rate to be lower than the deaths due to abortion.

Secondly, how different are the rates? Pregnancy is very safe, at around 7-8 deaths per 1000 pregnacies.

Finally, we don't have accurate results of abortion mortality due to the fact that abortion doctors have a vested interest in not reporting.

Now, this only considers part of the situation. What about after the pregnancy/abortion?

Looking at the finnish study, including suicide, women are 4x more likely to die within the following year after an abortion than after carrying a pregnancy to term.

Excluding suicide, the rate drops to 3x as likely. Looking at just suicide, women are 6x as likely to kill themselves after having an abortion than carrying the pregnancy to term.

These are staggering numbers, and need to be included in any consideration of whether abortion will benefit the mother or not.

"Gissler, M. E. Hemminki and J. Lonnqvist. "Suicides After Pregnancy in Finland 1987-94: Register Linkage Study." British Medical Journal 313, no. 7979 (December 1996):1431-4

	27-06-2003 00:29									#20
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Is this mentally handicapped woman actually capable of committing suicide?

	27-06-2003 00:30									#21
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You really believe that doctors who perform abortions are twisted men who hide the shadows and cackle maniacally after every job done, don't you?

	27-06-2003 00:30									#22
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X-post.

	27-06-2003 00:36									#23
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The simple fact that a woman who carries a fetus to term is more likely to die as a result than a woman who has an abortion. More women die per thousand childbirths than women die per thousand abortions.

The statistics aren't comparable - you'd have to compare childbirth with adequate medical care and no indications of irregularities in the pregnancy at the end of the second trimester, to abortions of normally sized fetuses at the end of the second trimester. More generalized statistical comparisons are meaningless.

quote: And that doesn't even take into consideration the mere fact of pregnacy puts a woman at her greatest risk of being murdered (though I don't think that's a real risk in this case).

Even if it applied, it's an invalid argument - that's like saying blacks shouldn't be allowed to go to some places for their own safety, because they run a higher chance of getting lynched. Asserting the possibility of unlawful interference by third parties is pretty spurious in determining the interests of the parties in any case like this.

	27-06-2003 00:46									#24
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi twisted men who hide the shadows and cackle maniacally after every job done, don't you?

That would be me on the way home from work.

	27-06-2003 00:52									#25
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This is all a bit of a non-thread.

No-one would suggest the baby be aborted unless they thought the mother's life was in danger, and the mother's life being in danger is the one time virtually all pro-lifers accept abortion can be done anyway.

So that just leaves discussion of whether her life is in danger or not... where's the contraversy in that?

	27-06-2003 01:03									#26
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Da Shi:

quote: You really believe that doctors who perform abortions are twisted men who hide the shadows and cackle maniacally after every job done, don't you?

No, I think some believe they are really helping women.
These are the ones I understand because I can't see how they would do their job otherwise.

quote: Is this mentally handicapped woman actually capable of committing suicide?

Laz:
Point well taken. The general statistics still need to be applied to each individual case, since some women will have greater risk than others.

quote: So that just leaves discussion of whether her life is in danger or not... where's the contraversy in that?

None. Her life, apparently, is not in serious risk from the pregnancy.

	27-06-2003 01:03									#27
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Hence obiwan's point that he feels she would have been automatically at greater risk with an abortion.

	27-06-2003 01:11									#28
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I've read the article obiwan links to, and there's a couple of points I think get glossed over to an extent.

Firstly, the issue of self-harm with the possible intention of causing miscarriage. This gets dismissed, with the blunt assertion that there's no proof that this ever happened. I don't believe this. My reason for this is based on personal experience, and here at Poly people tend to get cross and shout "not fair!" when personal experience is called on, so I'll leave that there.

Secondly, the suicide/depression statistics can also be interpreted as "a suicidal woman is less likely to carry a child to term". That doesn't surprise me at all, and it's a slant I'm more inclined to take seriously.

Finally, to those considering pegnancy to be the safe choice, consider this. Among the OT regulars we have one whose wife came very, very close to dying in childbirth. We also have another whose wife is fighting an ongoing battle with post-natal depression. Childbirth is a wonderful thing, but it has it's risks.

	27-06-2003 01:16									#29
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Finally, a couple of quotes for balance.

quote: According to Levi, the suicide death rate among males in the European Union (EU) fell by more than 10 percent over the past two decades, while for women in Western Europe and North America, the rate has dropped by more than 40 percent since the 1970s.

http://www.ivillagehealth.com/news/..._585015,00.html

quote: A 1997 publication from the National Injury and Violence Prevention Resource Center reported on the incidence of violence among pregnant teenagers. Estimates are that abuse occurs in from 6 to 17 percent of all pregnancies. Studies of pregnant teens show consistently higher rates of abuse, ranging from a low of 22 percent to a high of 41.5 percent (Guard, 1997, p.2).

http://www.apa.org/pi/pii/emsctraining1.html

Then again, I never place much faith in statistics.

	27-06-2003 01:21									#30
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quote: and here at Poly people tend to get cross and shout "not fair!" when personal experience is called on, so I'll leave that there.

When recognised for what they are, personal testimonies are valuable. I just get picky when people cite their own experiences as the truth in all cases.

quote: "a suicidal woman is less likely to carry a child to term".

That's a very good objection, but we don't have anything to suggest a significant difference between the women who abort, and the women who do not.

Many women who do choose to carry to term have unplanned pregnancies, and many who choose to abort do so from convenience.

quote: the issue of self-harm with the possible intention of causing miscarriage.

Happens even with abortion available.