28-06-2003 07:10									#1
	PEACE Relations - To trade or not to trade? REDONE Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

We have had this debate for a while now, and it has come to crunch time. I have been debating with Flubber a lot this evening, and I am very much for this trade now. If we trade, we have a very good chance of getting a Pact. Thus not only do we gain Soc Psy, which we need for a builder game and for SPs, we also gain an ally and a way to diminish the power of the PUT. They seem very ameanable, and they said with a pact they would probably trade Doc Flex too. I believe we will gain enormously from this. As we do not know where they are, war could be futile, and we gain in commerce too with this.

You have seen Flubber's logic, and I think they are not trying to out do us. Indeed, I have convinced Flubber to hold a snap poll to and he is trying to get us 20 Ec to offer to trade. I believe we should do this deal regardless, however I have said if he can offen a sweetener, it would help me to convince the others. I think we will get a sweetener, possibly Ec, and probably a Pact. Let us show our goodwill, and do this trade. If we get a sweetener, then great. If not, it is still much to our benefit.

It looks likely that we will get a pact from this. There the vote is 2. A straight trade (obviously I will try to get us more) as issue 1. A trade with a small amount of Ec from them as a sweetener as issue 2. Yea or Nay to both.

You have 2 days.

	28-06-2003 07:13									#2
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quote: They seem very ameanable, and they said with a pact they would probably trade Doc Flex too.

Where? The only vague comment I read was:

quote: Also a factional decison was made not to offer doc flex at this time. If we reached a closer relationship, sure but not at this moment

Anyway, I'd vote NAY on both issues. IMO 20 ec is too little.

	28-06-2003 07:15									#3
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I am obviously very strongly for it. We have a lot to gain, possibly even the game. I cannot see a reason against anymore. We gain techwise, commerce, sercurity and influence wise. A sweetener would be nice, and I will try very hard for one, but if we cannot, then I am still very much for it. Please post reasons for your vote.

Dicussion here BTW.

	28-06-2003 07:16									#4
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Maniac: Why? He said about a Pact in a PM to me. That was about all he said, but he said that he would try for a Pact, as he was for it, and says there was much support for it there.

	28-06-2003 07:20									#5
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quote: I cannot see a reason against anymore.

I don't understand why you say that. The reasons are still the same: Doc:Flex and PlaNets are much more valuable techs than SocPsych. Us doing such a trade would be a very bad deal for us.

	28-06-2003 07:47									#6
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We are not trading Plan Nets for Soc Psy. They are researching Plan Nets. They will have it next turn regardless. All we can choose is if both faction shave Plan Nets and not Soc Psy, or if both factions have Soc Psy and Plan Nets. As you saw from Flubbers argument. He is correct. This debate is not about Plan Nets. Both factions will have it regardles of our actions here. This is simply about if we get Soc Psy or not. We may get Doc Flex with a Pact if we agree to this (we have App Psy to offer them). We gain a very valuble tech out of this. WeE have a chance to go for SotHB and so get an extra one (with Biogen and Soc Psy) aswell as much needed Rec Commons. We also gain much commerce and a powerful ally, who can give us commlinks (most likely faction to find them). We have nothing to lose. We have everything to gain. We are not trading Plan Nets, they will get it anyway. We are trading Soc Psy for Soc Psy. Indeed, our trading them Plan Nets means they change production to a less valuble tech, Soc Psy, so their net gain is the same as if we trade them Soc Psy for Soc Psy and we both research Plan Nets ourselves. Value is also debatable. Rec Commons are extremely important, especially to us.

	28-06-2003 07:53									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue We have a chance to go for SotHB and so get an extra one (with Biogen and Soc Psy)

University announced the discovery of "Secrets" here in 2110

	28-06-2003 08:25									#8
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Opps Strike that then. However it is still an extremely useful tech. And SotHB puts us closer to getting the Citizens Defence Force, which wouldbe very useful, both for building time, and for military and offensive purposes.

	28-06-2003 11:38									#9
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My vote goes for nay if they do not offer us the Pact. If they do offer the pact (and, of course, try to get a healthy number of ECs), then my fears are allayed. My major concerns were that they would use their advantage against us.

HOWEVER, if they offer the pact, accept with the following wording (or some variation)...

"The Cybernetic Consciousness presents a gift, consisting of the knowledge and technology to begin construction of Planet-wide Networks to PEACE. This gift is made in good faith based upon the following assumptions, and failure to meet these expectations would gravely diminish PEACE's credibility with the Cybernetic Consciousness.
1) A Pact of Siblingship is signed between our two factions no later than Mission Year 2118, solidifying the relationship between our factions, and reaffirming our friendly intentions.
2) PEACE's research on Social Psychology, gathered during the aftermath of the Unity exodus, is gifted, in return, to the Cybernetic Consciousness no later than Mission Year 2118, committing our two factions to a research partnership.
3) PEACE provides no less than 20 (**or other number agreed upon**) energy credits worth of foreign investment to the Cybernetic Consciousness no later than 2118, allowing for us to improve our trade infrastructure, and furthering the committment to economic integration of our two economies."

	28-06-2003 11:51									#10
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Another thing... if they do accept, then let's inform them of the incredible suspicion that their methods of negotiations invoked in many (indeed, at times it seemed all) members of the Cybernetic Consciousness, and suggest that they choose a subtler negotiator... though he did attempt to use logic for his position, his arguments ignored some other, important facets that should have been addressed earlier (the relative worths of the techs, and the possibility of further compensation).

	28-06-2003 18:20									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue And SotHB puts us closer to getting the Citizens Defence Force,

CDF prerequisite tech is Intellectual Integrity (its prereqs are Social Psych >>> Ethical Calculus and Doctrine Mobility >>> Doctrine Loyalty)

Secrets is a prereq for Centauri Empathy and Neural Grafting

*************************************

On a relative tech-value basis:

Planetary Networks gives:

Probe team ability
Ability to run Planned
can build Hologram Theatres
Can build The Virtual World SP
Can create Librarian talents
Is a prereq for Industrial Automation and for Cyberethics

Doctrine Flexibility

Can build with the foil chassis
Can build Pressure Domes
Is a prereq for Adaptive Doctrine, Doctrine Initiative and for Doctrine AirPower

G.

	28-06-2003 21:20									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Corellion: So if we can get a Pact, but no Ec, you would be in favour? I am presuming that we will get a pact, as Flubber said that he has convinced many of them, and it looks likely. I think we will get the 20 Ec too.

With regards to their diplomacy, I did have words with him about the style and pressure they used, and he apologise, but said that it was due to them having to decide last turn. Personally, I accept that, and he has been extremely polite and civil since then. His views are towards a long term pact, and I am with him on that. I think we have the same fears and views, and they felt the same about our intentions. It was a misunderstanding IMHO.

I have the turn, but I promised that we would delay for at least 24 hours in order for polls to get to a decent stage, and for them to decide if they can offer us the Ec and Pact. At the moment, if I get what people mean correct, if they have voted in favour of a Pact, then we are to gift them Plan Nets in return for Soc Psy, regardless of the Ec situation, although I am to push for that. Flubber said it is just game mechanics the way that it works with the gift, and so that he would consider it cheating of they didn't then offer Soc Psy as agreed. I am with him on that, Flubber is a well known PBEMer and has a perfect record AFAIK. Therefore I am not at all worried about them not gifting us afterwards.

I think we will get the Pact and the Ec, but if we get the Pact and not the Ec, do I do it or not? Maniac says no, I say yes, Corellion says yes if I get his post right? elijah has PMed me to say yes to both, but I have asked him to vote in the poll too.

	28-06-2003 21:24									#13
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Googlie: You are of course correct. I was thinking of getting the Empath Guild, which we don't have. I am sorry about that mistake

	28-06-2003 22:39									#14
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I voted yea/yea. Seems to make sense.

	29-06-2003 03:27									#15
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I have PMed Flubber to ask if he can PM me tomorrow with the results of their polls on the pact and the ec. As this poll stands, we will offer them Plan Nets either way, but he sai that so far there is very strong support form the pact, and that he thinks he can get us the ec. I am reserved but hopeful I will play tomorrow GMT, when I get the results from Flubber.

	29-06-2003 04:27									#16
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I have received a PM from Flubber:

quote: -- I can offer the 20 energy credits As for pacting, I set a poll asking people their vote on the idea of pacting with you ( with terms to be negotiated) and the current status is 3 to zero in favor -- Our polls generally only get 6 or 7 votes as our active membership seems to be around 8 or 9 so its looking good Ambassador Flubber

We have the Ec, and almost certainly the pact (major hiccup if a the next 4 all voted against). Even though we voted for trading without the Ec, this is a nice bonus

I have PMed him back stating that we accept, and look forward to future co-operation. "After a shakey start, we have built a solif foundation".



Since we have now sorted this out, and have a 4-1 vote for the trade, I will play the turn, and offer them Plan Nets.

	29-06-2003 07:15									#17
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arty:

Huzzah!

An ally is better than an enemy anyday.

But if they betray us , they shall feel our wrath!

So, whether through trading or research, let's get Doc: Flex... just in case.

	29-06-2003 23:41									#18
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I agree. I will push for trading, but if we don't get it traded in a tech or twos time, we should research it IMHO.

	21-06-2004 22:46									#19
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See-- things at this point were all positive-- I don't see why anyone brings this trade up as one that was souring relations

	22-06-2004 21:06									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Corellion But if they betray us , they shall feel our wrath!

Could this be a hint?

I don't know for sure. I just know that, when I turned up, I was informed PEACE backstabbed us on a deal.

	22-06-2004 21:46									#21
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Could this be a hint? I don't know for sure. I just know that, when I turned up, I was informed PEACE backstabbed us on a deal.

I keep hearing that but

1. Deal 1- we gave a tech and cash for a tech -- there was never any backstab

2. Deal 2-- I was away for this one but we were supposed to get cash and tech-- and apparently we drove too hard a bargain or some foolishness-- I say foolishness because PEACE never got the tech promised. There is an allegation that PEACE lied about the source of some techs and tried to hide whom they knew but thats about all we/they did.

3. All later dealings consisted of Cycon lying about who the turnplayer was, whether or not they got emails, whether there were errors in their tech choice etc while PEACE kept gifting stuff in the hope to salvage an alliance agaainst the obvious HIVE/DRone alliance.

In retrospect I don't see that we were that hard to deal with. Trades with the Hive and university were accomplished easily. Deals with the cycons came in only two flavors

a) a deal where we gave a tech and cash for a tech
b) deals where the cycon reneged on their promises

	22-06-2004 21:56									#22
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Interesting... we didn't do any reneging that I could tell of from when I joined, which was as the battle preparations were being drawn up.

	22-06-2004 22:09									#23
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well well. Looks less and less like an actual backstab and more that the PEACE Diplomat of the time was going to be too much of a c*nt to deal with.

This is a very telling exchange - I couldn't bump it as the thread is closed.



Looks like we have, above all else, the short temper of one johndmuller to blame for the whole business.

Flubber, other PEACE members - let me know what you think of it.

	22-06-2004 22:52									#24
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We supported JDM and all ambassadors in being tough, pirate-like, whatever. He was probably our most "into it" roleplayer, he seemed to relish the role of a salty seadog. In hindsight, his tone was a miscalculation. I do believe however that the frustration had already accumulated and the distrust incubated, and that had relations been better at that point this would have blown over and been mostly forgotten. But your own team members will be better able to answer that.

	22-06-2004 23:16									#25
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Well well. Looks less and less like an actual backstab and more that the PEACE Diplomat of the time was going to be too much of a c*nt to deal with. This is a very telling exchange - I couldn't bump it as the thread is closed. Looks like we have, above all else, the short temper of one johndmuller to blame for the whole business. Flubber, other PEACE members - let me know what you think of it.

I read that for the first time a couple of days ago in the thread you reference. That occurred during my 3 week vacation last August so I wasn't party to what was going on at the time. I only knew that there was some bitterness but that a deal had been achieved. Later I heard snippets about that communication but frankly didn't spend much time thinking about it and never really looked into it.

It is an odd communication and I understand that Johnd says it was all a joke. I will say that johnd does seem to have a temper and exhibited it a few times

As for this souring the relationship, it definitely didn't help but reading your forums was instructive since there was a good proportion of folks that wanted to war on us since they perceived our not trading doc flex as hostile. Also a few of the cycon leaders discussed with approval the idea of saying we had a deal for plan nets so we would choose another research path and then you could say the deal wasn't approved and then demand a higher price for that tech. When you consider this was very very early before any other crap, I would to say that the cycon were predisposed to backstab PEACE ( largely due to their belief in a HIve alliance)

So I think that blaming johnd or Peace bargaining tactics is a nice distraction. The tone of the Cycon forum was often along the lines of "how can we screw them" while PEACE discussions were along the lines of " we don't trust them but lets try to work on making them an ally". Read the forums-- I'm slowly making my way through them and its a hoot to relive some of it

	23-06-2004 00:22									#26
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I find it funny how some of you pirates constantly downplay your own lies and attitude and blow up the CyCon lies. Is it so hard to admit to yourself that both sides have responsibility in the affair and that you aren't entirely innocent, instead of throwing ALL the blame at the CyCon's feet?

	23-06-2004 00:57									#27
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Yup it is hard-- in fact impossible

Is it so hard for the cycon to admit that they carried on a plan of deception for years and years??

	23-06-2004 01:00									#28
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Where have you seen me denying it (after the game was finished)?

	23-06-2004 01:05									#29
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Temper, temper

	23-06-2004 01:06									#30
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Easy fellers, the games over... lets just let it die, and by gones be by gones eh?