29-06-2003 17:34									#1
	Payware is going extinct? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Disclaimer: This thread is not propoganda or promotion of illegal software. You must destroy all illegal software that you have. You are legally allowed to use adware programs or remove trial versions just after expiration date without purchasing. If you disagree you must leave the thread!

Please read the disclaimer carefully! By participating in the thread you automotically confirm that you agreed with the disclaimer.

Ok. And now the topic.
More and more people have fast cable/ADSL internet and their upload speeds are growing. Also peer to peer download networks (KaZaA, eDonkey, iMesh) are developing quickly. Now almost any software product can be downloaded using these free programs. Also MP3s and movies are easily downloadable via these networks. Moving total ban on the p2p software is imposible and some experts claim, that payware will go extint within 20 years. Psychologists say, that 73.4% of normal people who have money to purchase the software but can get free illegal version would use free illegal versions. Also they say that 99.6% of people who have no money to purchase would use illegal software. Yes, you can pay 40$ for a month with fast internet and download GBs of software products that would cost 10000$ to purchase.

Software developers would not work for a free and there are some possible futures.

1. Computers taxes. All PC/Mac owbers would be taxed by the goverment and would get all software for a free. Those who don't pay lose their computer. The goverment pays to the software developers according to the usage rate of the software.
2. Adware programs. You pay developer by watching advertisments inside the program. The adware programs already appeared. For example you can download adware version of DivX pro. The disadvantage of the adware, that it requires internet connection and can not work offline.
3. Paying with CPU time. Some huge projects (Human genome, for example) require a lot of computing and even supercomputers need a lot of time for data analysis. Maybe future software will have enormous hardware requirement and will run some specific calculation for third party while you are using the software. If your have not enought CPU resources for the background process the software would fail to run. The software of this kind already exists. In SETI@Home you pay for cool screensaver with your CPU-time.
4. Death penalty for "warezist" in USA. The solution would probably fail, but everything may happen. Death peanalty would really stop distributing illegal files in peer-to-peer networks, but will make USA a dictatrship.

	29-06-2003 17:55									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

id rather that software developers quit and never make software again then let one person pirate software.

	29-06-2003 17:57									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I predict that attempts will be made to implement all three, and that such attempts will fail. Software development will slow to a crawl because programmeres will be doing it in their spare time and not getting paid for it. Except for people with sister's like Jaguar Warrior's. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=90259

	29-06-2003 18:51									#4
	Remove this text

Service. Software is free, but maintenance, installation, tech help etc. isn't.

	29-06-2003 19:26									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I really can't imagine payware ever going extinct. After all, people apparently find downloading payware illegally more worthwhile than getting free open-source software legally.

Once the illegal dowloading would get so much out of hand that the entire software would be at the brink of extinction, consumers would be digging their own grave.

But I'm not sure about the importance of support. People are getting more and more familiar with computers, and I know I've never made use of any sort of official support. If I ever need help, I can figure it out myself, or with the help of some friends or the all-knowing Internet (e.g. Apolyton).

And about your proposals:
(1) Not such a bad idea actually... I just read about something similar (I think), in regards to music (this site: http://www.weblisten.com/). From what I read, you pay to get unlimited download access for a limited amount of time. So, that's quite different from the pay-per-song kind of thing that already existed.
(2) OK, but I'm not sure if it really works. After all, you can't guarantee that anyone actually pays attention to any of the advertisements, and the distaste for unwanted "commercial attention" on the Internet is only growing. Not to mention the possible intrusion of privacy.
(3) Nice... but not really suitable for many products. I mean, what could, say, a gaming company possibly want with supercomputing powers? Sell their "network" to scientific institutions perhaps?
(4) Come on, that's just laughable! Why on earth do you need to bring the death penalty in to this?
It's not the punishment that's of any importance, but rather the chance to actually get caught.

In principle, I agree with the disclaimer. But that doesn't mean I'm actually gonna do it.

	29-06-2003 19:31									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

How about legal free software ?

Last edited by Ari Rahikkala on 29-06-2003 at 19:36

	29-06-2003 23:51									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ari Rahikkala How about legal free software ?

Yes, some free software products are high-quality programs (PovRay for exmple), but must of free somtware are unprofessional and low-quality. Software coded by well paid programmers is much better.

TO Mercator: Remove last string of your post to avoid being Minged.

	30-06-2003 00:03									#8
	Get a bigger avatar today!

muxec, I need help to find a certain software. an old one. can you help?

	30-06-2003 00:39									#9
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by muxec Software coded by well paid programmers is much better.

I disagree. A fat check doesn't increase programming ability. The main reasons why free software can be worse quality is either because it's made by people that aren't very good programmers, or because the project is being coordinated badly.
I'm quite sure there is much more freeware out there than payware, so the comparison isn't entirely fair. And not to forget, there are also a lot of "hobbyists" who want money for their shaky software.

quote: TO Mercator: Remove last string of your post to avoid being Minged.

Why? I'm not promoting nor endorsing illegal software (or any other licensed/copyrighted material for that matter), nor did I even say I had any... Is the reason you put that disclaimer in because you fear Ming, or because you actually believe in it?

	30-06-2003 00:53									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Mercator I disagree. A fat check doesn't increase programming ability.

No, it doesn't. However, experienced programmers are, in general, going to write programs that they'll get paid for, rather than just work for free.

	30-06-2003 00:59									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

skywalker: I am for people getting paid. but projects like the open-office show that it's not neccessary.

	30-06-2003 00:59									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Mercator Is the reason you put that disclaimer in because you fear Ming, or because you actually believe in it?

No... he knows that Apolyton has a Zero Tolerance Policy to discussions on Software theft

	30-06-2003 01:12									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I know, but this thread isn't about software theft, it's about the future of software.

quote: Originally posted by skywalker No, it doesn't. However, experienced programmers are, in general, going to write programs that they'll get paid for, rather than just work for free.

There are also plenty of them who also program for free (Perl, for instance). And you can argue about the quality of things like GNU/Linux, the GIMP, open-office (as Azazel mentioned) etc. but you can't say they aren't made by experienced programmers.

	30-06-2003 01:13									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Death peanalty would really stop distributing illegal files in peer-to-peer networks, but will make USA a dictatrship.

now it did stop murderers didnt it

	30-06-2003 01:42									#15
	Suffering from ads?

Mercator: however, far more high-quality programs are made by paid programmers.

I'm not saying there wouldn't continue to be good software. I'm saying there probably wouldn't be nearly as much.

	30-06-2003 02:18									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Firelad Service. Software is free, but maintenance, installation, tech help etc. isn't.

money making only needs to move to next level, which current crop of managers just doesn't like, but money making will evolve from current primitive/aggressive level.

	30-06-2003 02:19									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The best software is always paid for.

There is no way around it.

There's a reason alot of stuff is freeware. It can get you in the door but when you need power and reliability, the best stuff is always always paid for.

	30-06-2003 04:22									#18
	Re: Payware is going extinct? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by muxec Software developers would not work for a free and there are some possible futures.

Are you deffinetely sure?
[/QUOTE]
1. Computers taxes. All PC/Mac owbers would be taxed by the goverment and would get all software for a free. Those who don't pay lose their computer. The goverment pays to the software developers according to the usage rate of the software.
[/QUOTE]
it would ruin all free software development.

quote: 2. Adware programs. You pay developer by watching advertisments inside the program. The adware programs already appeared. For example you can download adware version of DivX pro. The disadvantage of the adware, that it requires internet connection and can not work offline.

With free Internet connection you could dream about it. No adware patch is always an option.

quote: 3. Paying with CPU time. Some huge projects (Human genome, for example) require a lot of computing and even supercomputers need a lot of time for data analysis. Maybe future software will have enormous hardware requirement and will run some specific calculation for third party while you are using the software. If your have not enought CPU resources for the background process the software would fail to run. The software of this kind already exists. In SETI@Home you pay for cool screensaver with your CPU-time.

I could use some computer time and I'm game developer. Then again doing it at slow computers? People who could really help would rather pay by money. Poor people have slow computers.
Calling SETI screensaver beautyfull is rather funny. You could run it without screensaver. This is major improvement in that aplication.

quote: 4. Death penalty for "warezist" in USA. The solution would probably fail, but everything may happen. Death peanalty would really stop distributing illegal files in peer-to-peer networks, but will make USA a dictatrship.

Isn't US already dictatorship or fashism?

	30-06-2003 04:26									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker The best software is always paid for. There is no way around it. There's a reason alot of stuff is freeware. It can get you in the door but when you need power and reliability, the best stuff is always always paid for.

7 kingdoms? It was paid game however that person had BIG freedom in how it would be done. This freedom doesn't exist in paid industry.
If your chief doesn't alow you to create something revolutional you could find yourself copying a freeware program. By chief order of course... This was one of reasons why Open source become popular, aside open source ideologist. Big companies have a problem with copying of your work this way.

	30-06-2003 12:28									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes, not-payware can be better. For example if Moo3 was adware it would be much better. Just because adware developers want users to use the software maximum time.

To raghar: You said about poor and rich people and good and bad computers. But i should reply, that i can buy a supercomputer for a price of 3D Studio Max. And i must say that the developer would better sell million copies for few dollars, than few copies for 5000$

	30-06-2003 13:07									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by skywalker Mercator: however, far more high-quality programs are made by paid programmers. I'm not saying there wouldn't continue to be good software. I'm saying there probably wouldn't be nearly as much.

OK, well... You got me there...

quote: But i should reply, that i can buy a supercomputer for a price of 3D Studio Max. And i must say that the developer would better sell million copies for few dollars, than few copies for 5000$

But how many people actually need 3ds max? Aside from the people who can afford it (e.g. the gaming and film industry)...

	30-06-2003 13:20									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

An ad based revenue system simply doesn't work.

We already tried this. It was called the dot-com bubble and it simply did not work. Period. Several trillion dollars in losses don't lie.

Ad based systems simply do not provide enough source of income to support a project. And I can't imagine playing a game like Battlefield 1942 with a big old pop up ad intruding into the screen.

The more specialized you get, the more chance that you'll have to pay for the software. I think monetary compensation is fair for someone or a company that has poured their lives and resources into creating something.

It's kinda like a starving artist, people shouldn't be able to take his work and just copy it and sell it to anyone they want to.

I think open-source is starting to reach its peak.

	30-06-2003 14:30									#23
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker The best software is always paid for. There is no way around it.

Really? What about bind and sendmail? Apache? Samba? OpenBSD? A bunch of GNU stuff?

	30-06-2003 14:33									#24
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Mercator After all, people apparently find downloading payware illegally more worthwhile than getting free open-source software legally.

Most people who download warez don't know better free software equivalent exists.

quote: Originally posted by Mercator But I'm not sure about the importance of support. People are getting more and more familiar with computers, and I know I've never made use of any sort of official support.

On the contrary. People are becoming less and less knowlegable about computers these days, with all the efforts going into dumbing it down.

	30-06-2003 14:51									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: And I can't imagine playing a game like Battlefield 1942 with a big old pop up ad intruding into the screen.

Imagine, civilopedia of Civ4. "Elite units became elite after wining few battles and visiting www.somesite.com

	30-06-2003 16:03									#26
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Imagine if that was actually true, though

	30-06-2003 17:28									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Azazel - as a person with interest in information technology and internet searching, I could share knowledge about theoretical ways to illegally acquire such software, provided you agree not to follow such instructions.


I'm also thinking about this question of payware alot.

I think that no software can stand 19 year olds with motivation and enough ASM knowledge.

But I think that if program developers lower their prices a bit (It's really not comparable to the music bussiness) they will find that many more people will be able to buy their products, and will want to.

While buying professional bulky equipment in real life is a hassle, and a normal person wouldn't want it, the average PC user most definitly wants to own Paint Shop or PhotoShop.

I have yet to meet an average user who was happy with what he could buy (paint / "presto imaging" / whatever crap).

Obviously most of the users will never use more than 10% of the features that photoshop allows, but they want the choise and the agility of top notch products. Not to mention they are getting easier and easier.

I personally suggest that an integrated model is developed.

Professionals pay for photoshop + patches + services + tools + tips

While a home user can pay a lowered price, and would pay extra if he wants patches + service + tools etc.

	01-07-2003 19:12									#28
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Such things exist already. They're called OEM, Limited Editions and Windows XP home edition.

The majority of visitors to this site have payed hundreds of dollars on games. PSP8 can be downloaded off their site for $100 (boxed for a little more). That's as much as Civ3 + PTW. But still, the majority here do have Civ3 legally, but PSP illegally.

It's all about priorities.

	01-07-2003 19:21									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Part of that is loyalty to Sid, I bet.

	01-07-2003 20:59									#30
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Part of that is loyalty to Sid, I bet.

Agreed. They know theoretical ways of getting illegal software, but they want to support Infogrames. Donation, sort of.