06-07-2003 05:04									#31
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panag I did not say it could not be done, only that it made no sense to do, except for a special condition.

	06-07-2003 05:09									#32
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 panag I did not say it could not be done, only that it made no sense to do, except for a special condition.

hi ,

neither did i say , i remember that everyone thought it was not possible , ....

actually the human brain has no limits and can beat any game AI , its just a matter of finding how , .....

one can wonder wheter or not this is fun , most people would byte at the top of the fingertips out of sheer madness , .....

have a nice day

	07-07-2003 22:39									#33
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ToeTruck -

This strategy is a real eye-opener for me. My game is not too bad, tactically, but diplomacy has always been difficult for me because it seemed like no matter how much you gave, it wasnt enough, and even if it was enough for one civ, another would nail you. I'm not done with my first game trying it (just got ToE , but its been very instructive so far.

Playing Monarch, tiny map, pangea, max land, as Greece. Seems impossible that some civ hasnt attacked because my civ is so weak (militarily). I almost had trouble with the Zulus who were lagging way behind the English and Russians, but when I finally started to pull away a little in tech, I had some non-critical techs (i.e., that wouldnt threaten the wonder I was building) to give them (or sell for 3 gold) and they quit being annoyed with me. I've gotten every wonder that I've tried for.

I'd gotten to where I can do pretty well at Monarch by being quite aggressive very early, but this strategy is amazing. Its like the civ version of Akido! It's really helped to put diplomacy into perspective for me.

Thank you for posting this thread.
GarP2

	08-07-2003 06:08									#34
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Thanks GarP2,

I'm glad you're having success with this strategy. I find it a gas to play and get some pretty good results as well.

quote: Seems impossible that some civ hasnt attacked because my civ is so weak (militarily).

Yea, I find that the biggest threat comes from barbs in the early game especially after a Massive Barbarian Uprising which can do some *extreme* damage to a one city civ!

I have played close to a hundred OCC games and have been attacked in less than five of them. Sometimes it happens, but not very often.

What's a little ironic here is that you are more vulnerable as a two city civ than as a one city civ. I've tried expanding this strategy to include more cities figuring "if I can do it with one city, two or three should be even better". There's something in the AI logic that isn't threatened by a one city civ that is on friendly terms. If you have an lightly defended second or third city, though, watch out. The AI considers you "low hanging fruit" and will attack without remorse.

quote: I'd gotten to where I can do pretty well at Monarch by being quite aggressive very early, but this strategy is amazing.

When I'm not playing OCC, this strategy is the basis of my builder game. If I can concentrate on a Super Science City and also found a Settler/Worker pump, I aim for 8-10 cities and use the Sell! Sell! Sell! approach all the way. The city with the Forbidden Palace is a huge asset in building Wonders.

Even at Deity, that approach has yielded Diplomatic Victories in the 1600's and Spaceship launches in the 1700's. Not bad for never declaring war.

Playing OCC is just an extreme (a fun one, in my opinion).

Once you get the hang of OCC at Monarch on a tiny map, crank up the difficulty level. In no time at all, you should be getting One-City-Wins at Emperor. Then, make the map bigger...

If you have the chance, post a save game somewhere along the line. I'd love to see how it's going.

Talk to you later.

- TT

	08-07-2003 21:05									#35
	Diplomatic Victory with Carthage Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I just finished experimenting with Carthage and snagged a Diplomatic victory in 1838AD under Emperor. I was about 30 turns from a Cultural Victory and had just build the United Nations. Since a launch was impossible before 20,000 culture, I held a vote.

Attached is the save file if anyone is interested. Sorry, no log.

- TT

Attachment: hannibal of the carthaginians, 1836 ad.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	08-07-2003 22:51									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by ToeTruck I know what you mean about trading; it does get tedious sometimes. Almost nothing in the beginning and pretty easy when you have the Great Library, but once Education is discovered, you have to talk to everyone ever other turn or so just to see what they have.

I messed that up a couple of times and learned my lesson when the Zulus demanded a tech that I had just gotten 2 turns before but was hedging on giving them yet. I reloaded and did it right [a learning game after all].

I kind of like the constant checking with (and trying to out-maneuver) the other civs, but the number of keystrokes and mouse clicks needed to arrive at, say, a mutually acceptable lump sum of gold makes it very tedious. Is there an easier way? Maybe cleaning my mouse would help.

quote: What's funny here, though, is that I find non-OCC games tedious when you have 200 or so captured workers and a zillion military units running around. So, for me, OCC is a break from tedium.

Yeah. This is my first real OCC game, and I'm amazed at how fast and easy it is micromanaging OC instead of 15 or 20. I already play mostly on tiny map to shorten the games.

GarP2

[message edited to get rolleyes in the right place]

	10-07-2003 06:04									#37
	Tribute, Keystrokes, and Mouse Clicks Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: I messed that up a couple of times and learned my lesson when the Zulus demanded a tech that I had just gotten 2 turns before but was hedging on giving them yet. I reloaded and did it right [a learning game after all].

Yep, I did that once. It might have been with the Zulus, too. They demanded Literature and I was about halfway through building the Great Library. I clicked "Take your empty threats elsewhere" and was dead within two turns.

When playing a one-city-civ, I always pay tribute. I figure it's a cheap way to make a rival Polite.

quote: I kind of like the constant checking with (and trying to out-maneuver) the other civs, but the number of keystrokes and mouse clicks needed to arrive at, say, a mutually acceptable lump sum of gold makes it very tedious. Is there an easier way?

I've gotten used to it, but it took a while. You're right, though, most of the keystrokes in an OCC game are used on the Diplo screen.

How's the game going?

- TT

	10-07-2003 06:10									#38
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I never commented, TT... :clap: clap: :clap:

I'm not a big OCC player, but I think the lessons learned are invaluable. For instance, even in regular games I've evolved into more of a Sell! Sell! Sell! (and Gift! Gift! Gift!) strategy myself.

Kudos.

	10-07-2003 10:01									#39
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Thanks Theseus,

I appreciate your comments.

quote: I think the lessons learned are invaluable.

Yes, that's the reason I play OCC. The focus needed to play a one-city-civ cuts to the chase. The wasted effort, the chafe of haphazard play, falls away.

What I've learned playing OCC has made me a far better player in non-OCC. Once you learn to get by with less, the abundance of a regular game is like a godsend, plentiful beyond your wildest dreams.

(at least that's how I see it).

- TT

	10-07-2003 23:20									#40
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TT -

The game is now not going so good. I caught the other civs in research and had to start researching techs myself. I was checking in with the other civs every few turns and all of a sudden they just started pulling ahead in research and wouldnt sell me any techs. They got a couple of techs ahead, and then after I started building spaceship parts, England refused to trade or sell me aluminum any more. England and Russia both built the UN and somebody called a vote, but no one won (I didnt get to vote, of course). After that they started going for spaceship techs.

I will play it out a ways, just in case someone gets generous, but England has the only spare aluminum and there is probably nothing I can do. The game is on a tiny map and it seems that there are only 4 of each resource. Not likely one more will pop up in my tiny corner.

Not sure what I did wrong. Even when I didnt have any techs/luxuries to sell/give, I still gave small gold tributes every few turns. What kind of leverage is needed toward the end to keep the other civs from denying the critical resource? I guess it's as simple as having something that they want, so the problem probably just relates back to my development throughout the game, rather than just mishandling something toward the end. I wasnt able to stay up with your build list time frame exactly, but was pretty close, i.e., within an item or 2. One thing I know I blew was that I was not able to take the time out to build workers in time for railroad (discovered steam unexpectedly in another civs diplomacy screen box and traded for it immediately), so with only 3 workers railroading was much slower than it should have been. Another thing was that I didnt have a library built by the time education was discovered.

Any ideas appreciated. I had some questions as I was playing the game. Ill look back through and try to remember them.

I'll also try again after this game gasps it's last.
GarP2

	11-07-2003 01:04									#41
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GarP2,

If you post a save, I can check it out.

How much cash do you have? Aluminum shouldn't cost too much. What were you paying them before?

I haven't played a tiny map for a bit, so I'm not familiar with the dynamics. The end game might play differently on a tiny map under Monarch.

- TT

	11-07-2003 22:25									#42
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TT-

Well, I'm still in the game. Had to cut research to 10% to save up cash, but they settled for 420g (seems like it was 350g before). By doing wealth when I cant research a spaceship component (while I'm researching the next tech), and supplementing that w 10% research/90% commerce when Aluminum runs out, I've been able to buy Aluminum and limp along, but I'm only getting 1-2 spaceship components built per Aluminum purchase, so it looks kinda bleak. I dont see why England doesnt just shut me down and eliminate the threat. They Did get caught trying to investigate my city, so maybe they dont know where I am on my spaceship construction.

BTW, how do you play back through a saved game? My playback at the end of the game doesnt even work. Thats been bad ever since CivIII v 1.09, which I played until I loaded PTW. I thought PTW included a CivIII update that would fix that, but it didnt. Should I have done a CivIII patch before loading PTW?

I read the forum at work on my lunchtime, so I'll have to post a save from home. Thanks for the help. Any feedback is appreciated.

GarP2

	13-07-2003 19:52									#43
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TT -

Here is the game file. I've looked back at the game, and the starting position may be somewhat light on shield production. Commerce appears to adequate, reaching your criterion of 350 beakers (they're actually erlenmeyer flasks)/turn at 100% research. Still, I'm sure I mishandled several things in the game, and welcome any feedback.

Thanks,
GarP2

Attachment: garpsave.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	13-07-2003 20:59									#44
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This is an excellent strategy, but my game falls apart in the Modern Age. I fall way behind in tech and my last game the AI had 5 spaceship parts built while I was still building Apollo. Ironically this was the one civ that was on an isolated island that I had "gifted" many techs.

	13-07-2003 23:00									#45
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Almost makes me want to play a game. Almost.

	15-07-2003 09:44									#46
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GarP2:

I took a peek at your saved game. It looks to me that you’re doing a lot of things right and a couple of things wrong. Changing those things might help a bit, though.

Here’s what I see that looks good:
1) You’ve kept your military to a minimum. That’s one of the hardest things for an OCC player to do; most people want to crank out units thinking: “I’ve only got one city for crissake, I have to be strong!” Good job.
2) You’ve built all the key wonders and all the required improvements. Excellent. That’s hard to do no matter what level you’re playing.
3) Both England and Russia are Polite. That’s the way it should be. Gracious is better, but not guaranteed.
4) Neither England or Russia has Superconductor yet. If you're going to win, that's the key. I think.

Here’s what looks not so good:
1) You’re way low on cash. Not sure how it happened, but that’s the root of all the problems you’re facing right now.
2) Athens is size 27. I strive for (but don’t always get) a size 20 city with exactly 40 food. That maximizes my shield production while having a Granary protects me when pollution hits.
3) You’re using entertainers for happiness instead of luxuries. I know you’re short of cash, but right now your Marketplace bonus is not even being used.
4) You only have one Worker. Fighting pollution is a hard job; you probably want at least six workers to get it done.
5) I’m not sure what you’re starting position was, but the better site would have been one square directly east. That would have allowed you to work two mountains boosting your shield production significantly. I understand the value of an irrigated grassland-wines. That makes sense to me, but getting two luxuries in the same city radius is so rare that I would have jumped on it immediately. That said, hindsight is 20-20.
6) The Russians have SETI. Ergh. That limits your research tremendously. With Research Lab and SETI, your beakers (yeah, yeah, erlenmeyer flasks) would be much higher.

I’m not sure what to suggest as you’ve probably played beyond this point (I know I wouldn’t have sat still waiting for advice), but here are a couple of ideas:
1) Research Fission
2) Change to cash.
3) Buy luxuries.
4) Take a couple of turns to build workers and mine tiles until you’re at 21 or 22.
5) Not sure how to get the techs you need, but you might be able to steal and or buy your way to victory.

Great advice, eh?

GarP2, you’ve done a great job; at least I'm impressed. If you don’t mind, I’ll try playing your position to see what I can do from here on.

Good luck with where you're at now.

- TT

	15-07-2003 10:06									#47
	I've been set up... Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well, that didn't last long. English declared War and trashed Athens as soon as I hit enter.

Any *earlier* saves I can look at GarP2?

- TT

	15-07-2003 10:23									#48
	Got spare money?

That was a very good point about the Granary for pollution protection.
Sorry cracked up when I read you post about being set up.
YOu must have acrew large enough to clear off pollution before it tips the balance in balanced food supply.

	15-07-2003 11:01									#49
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Thanks vmxa1.

quote: That was a very good point about the Granary for pollution protection.

Once upon a time in an OCC game far, far away, I sold my Granary once I reached size 20 figuring: "I'm cool at max, right?" No...not right. Having a Granary gives you the cushion needed to irrigate non-polluted tiles when pollution becomes a problem.

quote: Sorry cracked up when I read you post about being set up.

Yeah, I laughed pretty hard myself. Still am as a matter of fact.

I was sitting there concocting a grand scheme, trashing research, stealing techs, building Components...then ergh. Game over. Heh.

quote: YOu must have acrew large enough to clear off pollution before it tips the balance in balanced food supply.

Even in non-OCC games, I often toggle irrigation on and off on tile #20 in about half my cities. In those games, it's not a big deal. In OCC games, it's pretty durn important.

Playing OCC, I try to have enough to clear pollution on a Hill. That gives me enough to take on two Grassland/Plains or 2/3 of a Mountain. Good enough for me.

Still chuckling.

- TT

	15-07-2003 17:01									#50
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The funny thing is, that's not what happened in my game. I was never attacked. The AI launched their spaceship a short time after that save. I've since played another OCC game and was attacked by Persia. But essentially the same thing happened - I ran out of things to use to keep the AI civs happy. In the late industrial age, the AI just took off on techs and left me researching all my own. I had to trade sanitation and 350g to get steam power.

I'm going to read through your notes and try again.

GarP2

	15-07-2003 18:54									#51
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quote: Originally posted by GarP2 In the late industrial age, the AI just took off on techs and left me researching all my own.

The end of each age is tough. Techs get more expensive compared to the available science improvements, so the only way to keep up is to buy them. Try to find 2-for1 deals where you buy a tech and then trade it to another civ for a second tech. Save as much gold as possible early in the age.

If you fail to reach the next age the same time as everyone else, you've basically lost the game. It will be more productive to restart than try to play the modern age with no treasury.

	24-07-2003 15:58									#52
	Got spare money?

Does OCC mean "One City Combat"?

	24-07-2003 16:14									#53
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OCC means "One City Challenge". You have to win while only having one city.

Most people play for Spaceship, Diplomatic, or Cultural victories, but Conquest victories are also possible as DaveMcW has shown.

- TT

	25-07-2003 09:19									#54
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Woooo~

It's really a CHALLENGE, but it is too self-abuse.

Maybe sometime I would try it, but... it is too abnormal.


Thank you, ToeTruck.

	25-07-2003 09:33									#55
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quote: It's really a CHALLENGE, but it is too self-abuse.

You might be right, fanes7, but at least I am never bored playing OCC.

- TT

	25-07-2003 09:39									#56
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Hey GarP2, how's your new game going?

I replayed your posted position from the last game and had a great time. Evidently, the English just wanted a couple of luxury deals.

Did you have Cultural turned off? The reason I ask is that something funny happened long about 1974. I thought I was going to get a Spaceship Victory and a Cultural victory in the same turn, but...instead I got neither. The game just continued without resolution.

I know that was a long time ago, but I was just wondering what you remembered.

Talk to you later.

- TT

	29-07-2003 16:51									#57
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Great thread, TT.

I haven't done OCC for a while but I did a few after the AU game, and found that on tiny pangeas I'd usually lose to domination, as a strong AI munched up the other two.

Might try standard pangea OCC when I'm sick of my regicide conquest games ...

	29-07-2003 21:43									#58
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Thanks Cort Haus,

I had the same experience as you playing tiny maps. It's way too easy for power to become unbalanced; one civ usually runs away with it.

And, at only one city, there's not much you can do about it. The big civ just ignores you and gobbles up the others.

I read about your regicide conquest kick on another thread. Sounds like fun.

- TT

	03-08-2003 19:17									#59
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quote: Originally posted by ToeTruck Hey GarP2, how's your new game going?

Hi TT

just got back from vacation and I'm still recovering
I got creamed in the second game. Things went along great, then the leading AI civ just decided to take me out. Looked to me like the same problem again. Once you fall behind and dont have anything to offer, what use are you, other than a source of a little more territory? Going to have to look back at everything and refresh my memory before I try again.

quote: I replayed your posted position from the last game and had a great time. Evidently, the English just wanted a couple of luxury deals.

Yeah, I replayed the turn before they took me out on one version and made them a deal and they didnt wipe me out.

quote: Did you have Cultural turned off? The reason I ask is that something funny happened long about 1974. I thought I was going to get a Spaceship Victory and a Cultural victory in the same turn, but...instead I got neither. The game just continued without resolution. I know that was a long time ago, but I was just wondering what you remembered.

I'll have to look back and see if I can figure it out (can you do that after the game is in progress?), but I havent been turning any victory conditions off. My version of Civ runs a little squirrely, though. I cant replay at the end of games, and a few other things dont work quite right. I've got the original out-of-the-box Civ III (1.09?) then installed PTW. Never patched since my game is on a separate computer from my web capability. Have been going to fix that but too many other projects right now. The replay problem was present in Civ III and loading PTW didnt fix it. Do I need to patch anything?

thanks,
GarP2

edit: apparently, I misused the quote button. Still learning. Think I got it right this time.

	03-08-2003 22:27									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

GarP2,

You probably should add the PTW 1.21 patch. The out-of-box PTW was *way* flakey. I don't know for sure, but I bet there was something in the save format that caused the behaviour I saw.

Good luck on other OCC games.

- TT