29-03-2004 01:21									#91
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Bahhhhhhhh!

Everything was going perfect until the late Modern Era, about to finish the last few parts...

And then Babylon wins by culture!

	29-03-2004 01:31									#92
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Razzor,

I fired up your game save from 730AD where you were 8 turns from Copes.

The only thing I saw wrong with the position was that you had way too few shields. The city radius for Athens didn't contain any Hills or Mountains. The bonus grasslands and the Forested Game were excellent, but you only had 15 shields/turn.

At 15 shields, it takes 27 turns to build Newts. You want to be generating 20-25 shields at that point in the game so that it takes 20 or less turns.

Having so few shields becomes even more of a liability when you go for ToE. By that time, your rivals are toying with Factories and Coal Plants while you're trying to build ToE. You definitely need more shields by that point.

Remember that your single city should be producing 80+ shields by the end of the game. You definitely need a few hills or mountains to get to that point.

I suggest trying again with slightly more "shieldy" start position.

- TT

BTW - I played a few turns of your game, built Copes, traded like crazy, and then Germany beat me to Newton's by 7 turns. I think I would have made it if my shield production was over 20.

	29-03-2004 03:27									#93
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Thanks, i always tried to avoid mountains because they starve or don't allow my population to grow. Thanks, though, that was deffinantl;y the problem. What squares would you suggest?

I was thinking 2-3 mountains, rest forest-game or grasslands.


Thanks again

	29-03-2004 03:48									#94
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I usually look for something like 4-6 sea/coast tiles and a mix of everything else. Obvioulsy, bonus grasslands, Cattle, and Forested Game are great, but a bunch of Plains isn't so bad either.

Regarding the "big shield" tiles, Two Hills is just about the minimum you can get away with. Assuming you have no bonus food resources, that lets you easily optimize shield production as size 12 and size 20.

A couple of Forests in the initial mix is helpful simple because you don't have to develop them like you do Hills. Extra plains will do in a pinch. But, both Plains and Forests max out at 2 shields during your Golden Age (which *will* be under Despotism) so mining a couple of Hills or Mountains is definitely worth it...even more so if you win the Iron sweepstakes.

One of the first things you want to do right off when you check out a start position is making sure you can grow to size 12 and then adding up the shields you will produce at that size.

- TT

	29-03-2004 03:54									#95
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ToeTruck, why not create a OCC trainer? I messed around with one, to have a it of fun. (4 lux, iron, coal etc).
It taught me how to MM, even if it did not reflect a normal OCC game

	29-03-2004 04:07									#96
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I would love an OCC comparison game/trainer.
Never tried one, but would like to.

	29-03-2004 05:03									#97
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Thanks again

And an OCC trainer would be tight

	29-03-2004 05:46									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Krill ToeTruck, why not create a OCC trainer? I messed around with one, to have a it of fun. (4 lux, iron, coal etc). It taught me how to MM, even if it did not reflect a normal OCC game

I was just thinking of doing a trainer; that would be a bunch of fun.

This thread was originally for vanilla Civ3 - 1.29f. Would you all prefer playing vanilla or C3C?

And, would you prefer playing a random map and just seeing what happens or whould you prefer a modded map with a greater chance of winning?

If it makes a difference, I have a Civ3-1.29f random start with a bunch of shields ready to go...

- TT

	29-03-2004 08:11									#99
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C3C preferred here, but not everyone is of the "upgrade-and-don't-look-back" mindset. Color me optimistic. (1.15b)
As far as the map, random is groovy - no need to stack the deck any more than needed - aside from having a viable OCC start.

	29-03-2004 08:32									#100
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I prefer Vanilla.

That would be nice, bacause i hate having to restart, restart, restart, play 20 mins, lose, restart...


Thanks

	29-03-2004 22:10									#101
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Okay, here's a good start position for OCC. Seems to have a good mix of shields and commerce and shouldn't be too hard to develop.

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=10953_GreeceTrainer4000BC.jpg

The game is PTW 1.27f using a random map. The particulars are:
- Greece
- Standard Map
- Pangaea 70% water
- Wet
- Temperate
- 3 Billion
- Random Rivals (7 of them)
- Sedentary Barbs
- No linked start
- Normal production
- Emperor level

I've played it through building the Great Library, but no further...so I have no idea what's going to happen downstream. Copes and Newts might be easy, they might not.

For the first part of the trainer, I'll post game saves at the following points:
- Turn before researching Writing
- Turn before building Colossus
- Turn before researching Literature
- Turn before building Great Library

Feel free to play along for comparison or feel free to download one of my saves and play from there. I have no guarantee we will even come close to winning, but it should be a bunch of fun along the way.

I will keep an extensive log and a bunch of game saves. I don't plan to move too fast through the game so we might get in some good discussion. We might even play with some "what-ifs" at key points. We'll see.

BTW - If this is successful, I'll do the same thing with C3C when we finish up.

Any questions or thoughts...let me know.

- TT

NOTE: This comparison game has been moved to:

Comparison OCC Game

Please post your discussion to that thread.

Attachment: alexander of the greeks, 4000 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

Last edited by ToeTruck on 30-03-2004 at 04:26

	29-03-2004 23:15									#102
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TT that is a going to be interesting to see. I have one suggestion. Start a new thread so will be easier for others to follow that come later.

	30-03-2004 04:27									#103
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 TT that is a going to be interesting to see. I have one suggestion. Start a new thread so will be easier for others to follow that come later.

Done.

Please post to the following thread for discussion:

Comparison OCC Game

	30-03-2004 05:43									#104
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ok, ya, France beat me to newtons by ALOT in my first game. Any ideas as to what i can do to improve?

And how the heck are they getting 4 sheilds per turn from their hills? They are in the industrial ages tho.


Thanks

	31-03-2004 03:55									#105
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when I play OCC I play that I can't leave my cultural radius

I kicked butt in emperor, haven't beat deity yet

I posted about my game a while ago, the strategy I think is a little different if you can't leave your cultural radius

JOn Miller