01-07-2003 17:39									#1
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I recently received a PM from Chairman Voltaire of the Hive, apologising about Tassadars actions, and stating that he wishes friendship with our faction. It struck me that although we have not met other factions, a general opinion of how much friendship (from War to Pact) we would want with each faction might be a good idea when determining how our initial diplomacy is worded. We have already decided our stand towards PEACE, but how about other factions:

The Hive
Personally, I am in favour of good relations with the Hive, and simply replied that we took no (major) offence at Tass's actions and realise they are not official Hiverian comments, and that we do not have the petty emotional foibles that say that totalitarianism is always wrong, and thus their record with that would not count be a barrier to friendship. I would like to see us, the Hive and PEACE join together, to help defeat PUT and the Drones, while making sure that we are stronger than both, so we can then fight it out with them when the PUT and Drones are less of a threat.

The PUT
I think this needs War. We could go for a truce and maybe a few trades to start with, but IMHO they are a strong faction that is easy pickings. They are perfect, they will have a relatively small army, but many techs, so we can use techsteal to great effect. Let us be friends, but thenm double cross them ASAP. Archaic relies on friendship to win games, as I am seeing in Vets5 on CGN. As the PUT, he cannot win wars, so he goes for peace until he has a massive tech advantage. We need to hit them hard and hit them early IMHO.

The Free Drones
This is the one I cannot decide on. We should we well above them tech wise, but unless we have much better military tech, we would have a hard job in war, with little to gain (no techs). However they will be a very strong faction, and they need to be taken down a peg or two. Therefore, I propose that while we try to not meet them, and maybe stay at truce (or War, but try to be inactive) and let PEACE and/or the Hive (if we are allies) take them out. We take out the PUT, the others take out the Drones, while giving mutual aid to each.

What do others think? What is the best course of action to follow when we meet each faction? I think tech trading should be open with PEACE, open except for military techs to the Hive (they could slaughter us with military), open except for military and SPs to the Drones if at peace (we don't want their building advantage getting SPs before us) and open except for military and anything else important with then PUT. We need to trade with the PUT if at peace, because they will have much to trade with us, probably the only faction by that time with stuff that we don't have, however we have to be careful not to give them a military advantage. And we absolutly have to make sure that they do not get the Hunter Seeker Algorithm IMHO. They have massive probe deficits, with Knowledge and their -2, and without the HSA, we will be able to steal royally

	01-07-2003 17:43									#2
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BTW: Here is a copy of the PM was sent by Voltaire:

quote: Greetings... I first must apologize on behalf of the Central Continuing Committee of the Human Hive, the recent "proposal" by Comrade Tassadar was in no way sanctioned or authorized by the CCC or any official governing body of the Hive in any manner. Reprimand will be taken again the parties involved in these illegal activities, be assured of it, though the CCC does not hold any official powers in the general forums and thus we could not act to stop it. Part of the blame lies with me personally, for in my reign I have been to liberal and allowed decadence such as this to escape unpunished, be assured that things will change. Though the proposal of an alliance between our two factions can be assumed to be out of place for no official contact in game has occurred, I would strongly request that the government of the Cybernetic Consciousness consider such a possibility. The CCC would consider such an alliance between our two great factions of great benefit to both, it would serve to counterbalance the power of the University. It must be admitted that our factions do not agree on everything, and we have been accused of being despotic and totalitarian (both of which are far from the truth, though I am vested with near absolute power, my reign has been nothing short of benevolent). Both our interests lie in seeing the University toppled from their pedestal of power, thus we ask that an alliance (if not a formal one) be considered. Sincerely, Voltaire Chairman of the Central Continuing Committee of the Party and People of the Human Hive

	01-07-2003 18:15									#3
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Hmm - this is disturbing.

First Tass chatting, PM'ing and e-mailing Archaic - which I ruled was a breach of the "No contact between factions before in-game meeting (or getting the commlinks from a third party )"

Now Voltaire paving the way for a friendship pact before a formal meeting??

Equally egregious as Tass, in my opinion.

This is a very disturbing trend.

G.

	01-07-2003 18:30									#4
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That is true. I agree with you with tass and his thread, however I think Voltaire was trying to just remove what Tass had done. I think it was just an apology for Tass and trying to make sure that he had not done any harm. I simply read it like I read the general messages in responce to Pravda, in just saying "we should be friends" rather than any allaince proposal at all. However I agree that this may have crossed the line, and I apologise for my reply, which probably did too therefore.

BTW: Can we get commlinks from each other, considering we already have all of them? Is there a procedure for asking for

EDIT: If it helps your judgement, this gave me nothingn I didn't already know. I know that the Hive want peace, since their posts in 3D and Pravda supporting and trying to break common ground suggested this, as much as Voltaire did. Moreover, it is obvious that the Hive is scared of PUT, their posts show that. Thus although it is technically a breach, it will not alter our actions at all, since we were already aware of this.

Can I suggest you making a thread in the main forum stating what you believe is and isn't acceptable, since we have some communication (else no newpapers, no RPing etc.) but we are not allowed to discuss diplomacy. I don't think Voltaire, nor myself, had any intention of breaking the rules, but were unaware of the exact rules regarding it. Whatever you decide is or is not acceptable, I will abide by and support.

Once again, sorry for any actions that were unacceptable

Last edited by Drogue on 01-07-2003 at 18:38

	01-07-2003 18:39									#5
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The game mechanics recognizes that commlinks are not available (ie when the Pirates made contact with you, if you noticed, the status beside the faction now had Truce beside it, while the other three were blank.

When you now call up another faction to see what techs you have that they don't have, the Pirates' commlink now appears as something you have on the table to offer (try it - re-open the last turn and click on Buster, then "offer all tech" - you'll see jdm's commlink appearing)

So it (another faction's commlink) is an official trade offering

G.

	01-07-2003 22:31									#6
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I agree with Drogue. We should certainly ally with the Hive and war with the PUT. The Drones have expressed anti-Hive sentiments, so they will probably ally with the PUT against a Hive-CyCon alliance. The wild card for me are the Pirates, as besides Hercules, I don't really know any of their major participants.

	02-07-2003 00:05									#7
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Flubber is a good player, having completed quite a few PBEMs. Not quite up with buster, but close to Archaic in ability IMHO. JDM has played a bit, but haven't seen much, and he is easy to toy with diplomatically I favour good relations, as they have the unique ability of naval power, meaning commlinks (being the first faction with ships and thus the first to find others on other islands), support services for war, transport, and the fact that in every single player match I have the Pirates come second to me, with very strong tech. Because of sea bases, which are high in energy and nuts (so population, and even more energy) and so they will easily beat the Drones and Hive in the tech race. If we are to beat the PUT tech wise, we need to ally with them.

I agree with you that the Hive and CyCon will ally against the Drones and PUT. In that conflict, I think we will lose. However I think the Pirates will be the Kingmakers. They have no factional inclination to either side, IMHO they would go with the first faction they founds, which is us. I don't think we can win if the Drones and PUT combine forces, unless we have PEACE on our side. PEACE will be harder to keep than the Hive, but potentially more rewarding and useful IMHO.

	02-07-2003 01:01									#8
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quote: the Hive and CyCon will ally against the Drones and PUT

Not if we take out the PUT now

	02-07-2003 01:28									#9
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We haven't found them yet elijah. They are likely quite a way away, as I am pretty sure that Googlie would not put the 2 research factions near each other. Would be of too mucy benefit for us,a s we would trade and get evern further ahead. I think they will be near the other side of the map personally.

	02-07-2003 05:44									#10
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I have had an exchange with Voltaire who agrees that he unintentionally breached the sprit of the "no contact" rule by discussing a potential future alliance against the PUT in a private forum - rather than "float a trial balloon" on the winds of Chiron (by newspaper or e-news - in other words, generically - in the general forum)

He has committed to no further contact until a formal meeting has occurred.

G.

	09-07-2003 21:51									#11
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I think the Hive have met another faction. Why else would they ask for a delay and why would there be new posts every minute on their forum? Who knows, it might even be the PUT. That might explain Tassadar's emigration out of the Hive I guess.

	10-07-2003 00:10									#12
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A very possible situation, and a rather scary one However it is doubtful the Hive will have much techs for the PUT, or that the PUT will get on too well with the Hive, with one being FMers, and the other anti-FMers. Also knowing Voltaire's trepidation about the PUT. Let's hope there's a war

If the PUT get ahead of us techwise next turn, then we know it could well be the trading (or just them researching something )

	10-07-2003 08:52									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac That might explain Tassadar's emigration out of the Hive I guess.

I have set out the reasons here

	04-08-2003 00:24									#14
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Any more thoughts on this? Any actions people would suggest for the moment? I propose offering 1 tech for all the commlinks that PEACE have. Obviously try first without, but I think we'll need to offer that or a few Ec? What is PEACE's diplomatic status with other factions?

Last edited by Method on 04-08-2003 at 21:55

	04-08-2003 02:47									#15
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Still the same: pact with us, treaty with PUT, and informal truces with the Angels and Believers.

As for dealing with the Pirates, how about the following idea:

I suggest you tell them first we met the Believers. Tell them how, the story with the chopper, scout, vendetta etcetera... Also ask if they have met the Believers and have any extra useful information about them. Tell them we don't feel so safe regarding the Believers, and we might be interested in a cooperative action against them if necessary.

We won't be giving them crucial information by telling Peace about the believers: they can see the Unity chopper in our base screens and because they are our allies they probably know who we have met, just like we know it about them. However the advantage of telling them would be it gives the impression of us as open and cooperative allies. As a result they might become more willing themselves to disclose information to us, also about other factions besides the Believers.

Depending on how PEACE reacts on our believer query, you could then tell them the CyCon is always interested should PEACE meets another faction, and would always want to know more about it.

If they then claim they haven't yet met other factions, we know they are lying, and we shouldn't count too much on them as our allies.

Last edited by Method on 04-08-2003 at 21:54

	04-08-2003 08:20									#16
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Definitely a good plan, as it tests their loyalty, and opens the door for further conversation... it always sounds like you're using them if you just come straight out and ask for something.

As for our relations with other factions, we should play as friendly as possible to all of them (save possibly the Believers). Given that we can't attack any of them yet, we must foster good relations so that we can gain the temporary benefits of truces/treaties/pacts. Let's only begin to get hostile if they do, or if we can see some immediate gains, on top of the long-term ones. Besides, surprise attacks are better.

As for PEACE, I suggest that we try to seal a long-term relationship. Their naval nature makes them wonderful go-betweens and purveyors of information and technology. However we'll have to be tactful, as our island home requires that we build up a sizable navy of our own, and that may make them nervous.

As for the University, the competing research goals make us natural competitors, and I find it unlikely we can become friends. Unless things look unusually friendly, we should probably prepare to attack them at some point.

The Hive does not seem to have opposing philosophies with our own. In fact, their collective and communal qualities seem to match nicely with ours. There could be a future here.

The Drones are a bit of a wild-card. They share the communal spirit that could make us allies, but they appear to be natural enemies of the Hive. It seems unlikely we could be on friendly terms with both.

Of course, this is all tentative, and could and will change based upon future events, especially actually meeting the other factions.

	04-08-2003 15:53									#17
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PUT: i would suggest massive probe attacks as soon as possible after first contact. then try to take them out before they can work up to a full out war against us. No mercy or rest for the PUT. i know we dont have the resources for a land war. but we need to take them out fast. if they get an edge they will attack. and i do not want to be caught with our cybernetic pants down

PEACE: i agree with maniac` plan. and as long as we have a strong fortified island we will be safe atleast before air-power. just dont build to close to there territory.

HIVE: ally with them...but if possible let them be weakened by other factions. because if we destroy the PUT and maybe drones the hive might feel very powerfull.


Drones: peace with them and play the-we-dont-choose-sides-between-the-drones-and-the-hive game




on a general note: could we maybe make false documents of dimplomatic talks between us and par example the drones to attack the UNI. and leak them to the UNI so that the uni will not trust the drones anymore? or is this illigal?

	04-08-2003 21:58									#18
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quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword on a general note: could we maybe make false documents of dimplomatic talks between us and par example the drones to attack the UNI. and leak them to the UNI so that the uni will not trust the drones anymore? or is this illigal?

After you have met both factions, anything goes - propaganda, misinformation, etc etc

Prior to meeting both (ie, only met one) you can bamboozle that faction you've met with anything you want (hints, allegations, etc re deals with other factions whether met or not)

But you can't send anything privately to a faction you haven't yet met (but we are allowing General Forum "scuttlebut" like Pravda, 3D, etc etc to carry general articles, comics etc that can be read by anyone.)

So in the next 3d, for example, you could include an "Overheard while receiving maintenance" piece about the latest rumor that the Cycon and the Drones are hatching a combined Psi and Military invasion of the PUT. It can be as far-fetched as you want, but the keys are:

It must not be able to be construed as an invitation to ally or pact with any faction you have not yet met

and

It must be available to be read by all factions (in the general forum)

G.

	04-08-2003 23:31									#19
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ok tanx....but if we met everything goes?

	04-08-2003 23:36									#20
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Sounds good. I will start talks with Flubber with regards to telling them about the Believers, and asking about info they have. I favour Function Delta's plan for dealing with the PUT. Obviouslyn it needs more discussion, but I think probe attack pre-Pre-Sentient Algorithms, and as soon as we can, wipe the floor with them. But we need combat tech first. I'll keep you posted of my talks with Flubber.

	04-08-2003 23:37									#21
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quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword ok tanx....but if we met everything goes?

	08-08-2003 18:29									#22
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Any progress in Pirate relations?

	08-08-2003 23:10									#23
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Not yet, Flubber is on holiday I'll contact Herc tonight/tomorrow with our opinions and see of that gets anywhere.

	08-08-2003 23:45									#24
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Good. You might want to PM a copy to johndmuller as well though, as Hercules seems to have troubles using some Poly services.

	09-08-2003 02:40									#25
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Good idea. Will post here when sent.

	12-06-2004 20:32									#26
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The Hive thought we had informally agreed to a joint victory pact.

It was very strange working off the assumption that the joint victory pact with the drones was causing problems with an informally agreed on joint victory pact with the Cycon. This actually came up a few times during the Hive-Drone diplomancy, and the drones I think were a little confused why we kept getting sentimental over the Cycon.

The first contact when we finally did meet with the Cycon was disappointing. We had expected a far greater welcome, and so there was a fair amount of confusion. This was mixxed with the fact that we already had closed the joint victory pact with the Drones and I personally felt uneasy around the cycon because I felt I had betrayed their trust before we had even met. However, I got by telling myself it was illegal contact so we couldn't really be held to the informal promise.

	13-06-2004 06:29									#27
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Wow, old thread to bump!

We didn't know we had an informal pact at the start. I'd talked to Voltaire and liked the idea, but when we met you, and found you packmates of the Drones, we wondered if you were just playing us. After the PEACE incident, we weren't really in a massively diplomacy friendly mood. I would have loved to have given favourable trade, but after feeling like PEACE kept trying to mess us over, we were wary with everyone from then on. I don't know what you mean by 'a far greater welcome' though.

	14-06-2004 00:29									#28
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My "actions"?

	15-06-2004 02:17									#29
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We didn't have any informal agreement of a joint victory. We just had nice feelings toward each other. Kody came in a little late so he had not experienced the emotional build up and was perhaps a little confused when we talk about each other using the nicest languages.

	17-06-2004 02:31									#30
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Kody It was very strange working off the assumption that the joint victory pact with the drones was causing problems with an informally agreed on joint victory pact with the Cycon. This actually came up a few times during the Hive-Drone diplomancy, and the drones I think were a little confused why we kept getting sentimental over the Cycon.

So the Hive had an informal agreement with CyCon, but a formal one with the Drones? We didn't know this was a three-way thing at all! Or was that not the intention?

It's easy to see where the confusion lies - we thought we were possibly working with you guys, but then when it became clear you were definitely working with the Drones I sorta lost a bit of faith, whilst still hoping for SOME cooperation.