02-07-2003 17:06									#1
	Current trade proposals Remove this text

This is a list of trade proposals currently being discussed, collected into one place 'cos it's getting confusing to keep track of everything. Please feel free to update and add things as and when appropriate.


Neu Demogyptica

• Active
  Turn 230 we ended our fake war, and renew our spice and incense for furs and incense deal. Further, we get silks.
  We need to pay them again in turn 250 for their third lux
  
  AT given on turn 234
  Navigation given on turn 237
  Espionage arrived in turn 240 for us (NDA until 260)
  
  in turn 245, we received 500 gold. And sent computers in return
  In turn 246, we receive another 100 g (was a mistake the turn before, should have gotten 600).
  Normally, in turn 255, ND gives us rocketry. We respond by giving them 500 gold back (the 100 g difference to account for the difference in beaker cost)
  
  

Last edited by DeepO on 30-12-2004 at 15:58

	02-07-2003 18:02									#2
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Let's keep all of our luxury deals as Lux-Lux, so that if we have to break them to jump in on a Bobian war, we're not in a position where we got a tech or something else up front for a promise of luxuries for 20 turns, and then screwed the other team.

-Arrian

	02-07-2003 20:56									#3
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Changed formatting a bit and included new GoW info.

Have we explained to other teams our position re lux-lux deals being cancellable at any time?

	02-07-2003 21:02									#4
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quote: Originally posted by vulture Have we explained to other teams our position re lux-lux deals being cancellable at any time?

whats the deal with that?

	02-07-2003 21:06									#5
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quote: Originally posted by OPD whats the deal with that?

Iy was in some other thread. The idea is that if we don't want to sign NAPs with the Bobians, and we won't break our word, then we can't sign guaranteed 20 turn lux-lux deals, since it is a guarantee that we won't attack our trading partner - a NAP in effect (but probably not offering us the same position). So we should treat lux-lux deals as indefinite, cancellable at any time by either party (maybe with a few turns notice). Otherwise we may give up the chance to intervene on Bob when it is necessary (or give up our reputation as being honourable).

	03-07-2003 00:38									#6
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UnO from GoW asked if we would consider a DoW on a civ while a lux deal was in place to be breaking an agreement. I told him that was a good question, and we would certainly consider those implications.

We are not commited to treating Lux deals as NAPs.

	03-07-2003 02:49									#7
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Shouldn't we need to tell others we're closing lux deals with what we think is honorable, and what's not?

DeepO

	03-07-2003 18:40									#8
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Yeah, probably.

-Arrian

	03-07-2003 18:46									#9
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well, do we know already what is acceptable? I find a instant breaking of Lux by declaring war unacceptable, we need at least one turn warning (so that others can adjust their Lux sliders)

DeepO

	03-07-2003 19:29									#10
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I agree that it certainly shouldn't be done without warning. We should negotiate e.g. a 2 or 4 (or whatever) turn notification for cancelling lux-lux trades. Have to be careful though, since (at the moment) a technical declaration of war to cancel the trade may screw up other trade routes as well, while disconnecting harbours or resources may mess up the wrong deal. Once all Bob civs have harbours (and we have a harbour), then given the lighthouse, interrupting other trades shouldn't be an issue.

	03-07-2003 19:49									#11
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I say that 2-turn warning is good enough...

Gives enough time for each team to try and negotiate another deal if they can, and adjust themselves properly.

I wouldn't want us to make a big issue out of this, since we don't want to further delay the deals which are already in place. We should mention that this is how we see the nature of the deal (indefinite, cancelable at any time, with a warning beforehand), diregarding the technical issues of the game mechanics which set the deals to a 20 turns period (btw, does anyone know why Firaxis hasn't added a "set length of deal" feature, its kind of weird everything has to be set to 20 turns, especially in MP...).

	03-07-2003 20:13									#12
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Zeit,
IMHO it'd be best if you sent another PM to UnOrthO, explaining our logic (that lux deals are ongoing turn-by-turn trades, unlike e.g. a lux for a tech, where the party that is giving the lux would be advantaged out of cancelling the agreement before the 20 turns are over).

	04-07-2003 02:42									#13
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No more than 1 turns warning should be required before a DoW. None of the other teams are operating under our self imposed restriction to never break the spirit, if not the letter of a deal, as far as I can tell. Let's not be chumps.

	04-07-2003 03:00									#14
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Tabernac!

zeit, why did you include a statement about 2 turn warning in the message to GoW? Don't you think the economists and military would want to say something about that? Don't you think it would be good if the team agrees before stating a policy on our behalf to other teams? Don't you think it would be a good idea to at least check with MSS first, or his assistant (I think that's me)?

Please don't take this wrong. However, I am extremely frustrated with the 10 individuals do whatever the hell they want approach to our foreign policy. We have shot ourselves in the foot a number of times, and I think it is way past time we had a little more cohesion in this area. That will require people to reign themselves in and perhaps to respect a chain of command in diplomacy.

How do you think the economists would react if we each took turns at random playing the turn and doing whatever we felt like with workers and work force? I'm pretty sure someone would have something to say. We are the power we are now because we have capable economists, one of them is running that show, and no one messes with it.

We have been a basket case diplomatically, largely because we have lacked that same direction and consistency with foreign policy and diplomacy. I would like to see that change.

Am I making sense? Does anyone agree with me?

	04-07-2003 03:19									#15
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You are making sense.

Not that I take offence to what you say. But how do you expect people to act when there is no direction given? other than to do what they think best. You are in charge if you give someone direction they will follow. The people in charge of foreign affairs need to be more active in setting policy and telling amabassadors to do things. That is where cohesion will come from.

	04-07-2003 03:34									#16
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That's true too. However, under no circumstances should any ambassador ever feel that they should make statements about our team's policies based on a barely begun discussion.

I just feel bad that it is zeit who sparked this, but we have to get our act together some time yesterday. We have no more time. We are swimming with the sharks now.

	04-07-2003 03:49									#17
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You're absolutely right, NYE, and I apologize for rushing with that, You are indeed correct that this had to be discussed before acted upon.

I had my reasons for rushing, but since I realize I was mistaken, there's no point in trying to defend my actions.
There might be l time to fix the damage, though, as UnO hasn't replied yet...


Other than that, with regard to everyone doing what he wants (which is a problem in our FM) this has mostly damaged us in the public front, I believe, and not in front of every team in particular. Lack of cohesive action has alienated us from other teams, and not necessarily the fact that some (or most, depends on how you see thing) of it was disorganized. We do need more guidance and direction, as OPD pointed out, and it is true that for the last week or so there's no such organizer, but part of the diplomatic game is to know how to talk with many voices just enought to make others feel they have a chance to get what they want, without hurting or endangering eachother's as well as the team's efforts, like what was done on some of "those threads" as well as my action today.

Once again, I accept NYE's criticism/scolding, and apologize for my action. I will certainly refrain from repeating it in the future.

	04-07-2003 04:14									#18
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No more than 1 turns warning should be required before a DoW. None of the other teams are operating under our self imposed restriction to never break the spirit, if not the letter of a deal, as far as I can tell. Let's not be chumps.

yes. exactly what I've been thinking.


Why tie one hand behind our back, no other team would do the same for us. Hey, here's 2 or 10 turns to prepare for our landing. Have fun. When bob attacks us, it will be without warning, much like Vox, except we will have no Grog.

	04-07-2003 04:34									#19
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Actually, I was thinking of an interesting twist to that. We could say that the one turn warning on DoW when we have Lux for Lux going applies only to teams who have never broken a deal with us. We could set the counter to zero for all teams. It might give the likes of GoW cause to never screw us around again, like they did with the CoL trade, the screen shots, and the attempt to renege on Chivalry.

	04-07-2003 04:42									#20
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quote: Originally posted by zeit You're absolutely right, NYE, and I apologize for rushing with that, You are indeed correct that this had to be discussed before acted upon. I had my reasons for rushing, but since I realize I was mistaken, there's no point in trying to defend my actions. There might be l time to fix the damage, though, as UnO hasn't replied yet... Other than that, with regard to everyone doing what he wants (which is a problem in our FM) this has mostly damaged us in the public front, I believe, and not in front of every team in particular. Lack of cohesive action has alienated us from other teams, and not necessarily the fact that some (or most, depends on how you see thing) of it was disorganized. We do need more guidance and direction, as OPD pointed out, and it is true that for the last week or so there's no such organizer, but part of the diplomatic game is to know how to talk with many voices just enought to make others feel they have a chance to get what they want, without hurting or endangering eachother's as well as the team's efforts, like what was done on some of "those threads" as well as my action today. Once again, I accept NYE's criticism/scolding, and apologize for my action. I will certainly refrain from repeating it in the future.

OK, zeit. I am sorry it was you, I can't think of a nicer guy.

I have noted that MSS has not been around for a bit. RL must have caught him. Well, I'm supposed to be his assistant, and I'm supposed to be helping the ambassadors out, so let me know if things come up. I make a point to be on every day at least twice. Once in the mid afternoon for me (Mountain time) and again in the evening.

Other than that, Nathan is the Poobah currently. Talk amongst yourselves and ask him his opinion in a pinch when I am not around.

	04-07-2003 04:47									#21
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quote: OK, zeit. I am sorry it was you, I can't think of a nicer guy.

Well thank you...

Now I am ashamed AND embarrassed (positvely).

	04-07-2003 14:07									#22
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A few more changes made to the list.

	07-07-2003 14:11									#23
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More changes. Now that our flurry of end of war trading is done, this thread can probably die. Our turns are going to be quite simple for a while now.

	07-07-2003 14:21									#24
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No, let's keep it please.

	14-07-2003 17:00									#25
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A few edits, mostly to stop the thread from disappearing completely from view.

	18-07-2003 14:51									#26
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Back once again with the renegade bumping... (and editing of first post)

	21-07-2003 02:32									#27
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updated... time to top this one? As long as vulture does such a good job following all the ambassadros around when they forget to update it (which I'm totally guilty on too ), this seems to be worth it.

DeepO

	23-07-2003 21:12									#28
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Updated, with link to the RP treaty.

	03-10-2003 14:15									#29
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updated, although not with new info, just deleting old info (we no longer have a lux deal with ND for example).

	25-11-2003 07:28									#30
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TRADERS OF THE WORLD... UNITE!!

Envision a completed contract between GS and GoW: the Yellow Stain, ND, gone.

We have the opportunity to re-instate Spain (in some as yet to be determined way) on Bob.

We will be a three-legged stool, with ourselves, GoW, and perhaps most importantly Lego, as the main teams, with Vox and RP in supporting roles.

We will be in an uneasy yet semi-balanced peace... how do we trade? Resources, techs, non-game-functions?

We NEED to think this far ahead... anyone want to stare at the map for an hour or two, beer in hand, and give some guidance?