05-07-2003 00:41									#151
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quote: Actually, that's how the fascists made the revolution.

They also used violence you know . LOTS of it.

	05-07-2003 00:42									#152
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I am just worried about a beauracratic mess if everything is controlled by the government.

	05-07-2003 00:46									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Actually, that's how the fascists made the revolution. They also used violence you know . LOTS of it.

You don't need to use violence. The govt will be presured to either give into the demands of the mob to get the country moving again or use violence to get people back in line.

	05-07-2003 00:47									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Odin I am just worried about a beauracratic mess if everything is controlled by the government.

Not more than the mess than any modern company has today.

Only since a single entity will control the entire system, optimization would be much easier.

	05-07-2003 00:48									#155
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quote: You don't need to use violence. The govt will be presured to either give into the demands of the mob to get the country moving again or use violence to get people back in line.

In either case though that isn't a revolution . 90%+ of the time to have a revolution you need violence.

	05-07-2003 00:50									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You don't need to use violence. The govt will be presured to either give into the demands of the mob to get the country moving again or use violence to get people back in line. In either case though that isn't a revolution . 90%+ of the time to have a revolution you need violence.

If the result is a new govt then that is a revolution.l

	05-07-2003 00:52									#157
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quote: If the result is a new govt then that is a revolution.

New TYPE of government. New government indicates new leadership, same political structure.

Anyway, how often will a leader willingly step down in the face of a mob and allow a new type of government to come in and how often will he stay and fight? I'd bet on the later much more than I'd bet on the former.

	05-07-2003 00:55									#158
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quote: Only since a single entity will control the entire system, optimization would be much easier.

And this WON'T result in a bureaucratic mess? Are you kidding me? It is much better to have many different entities than one single one. It lesses the bureaucracy.

	05-07-2003 01:01									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Only since a single entity will control the entire system, optimization would be much easier. And this WON'T result in a bureaucratic mess? Are you kidding me? It is much better to have many different entities than one single one. It lesses the bureaucracy.

Actually, it goes both ways. On the one hand, with many small independant entities, you have a better resource allocation within these entities from between the top and bottom, because the distance between them is shorter.
OTOH, the coordination between these many independant entities requires extra work, which becomes an increasingly more complex and wasteful hell ass the society becomes more complex.

The problem is the opposite in huge integrated entities : the communication between top and bottom is a wasteful maze, but it is much easier and cheaper to articulate the interests of the whole structure.

	05-07-2003 01:01									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: If the result is a new govt then that is a revolution. New TYPE of government. New government indicates new leadership, same political structure. Anyway, how often will a leader willingly step down in the face of a mob and allow a new type of government to come in and how often will he stay and fight? I'd bet on the later much more than I'd bet on the former.

It comes down to whether the army will obey the leader or the people. They may obey the leader initially, but as the leader continues to fail at governing the army will eventually obey the people.

	05-07-2003 01:04									#161
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Decentralized planning would surely be a bigger cluster **** than capitalism. I've yet to hear someone come up with a plan that would be the slightest bit feasable.

	05-07-2003 01:15									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Only since a single entity will control the entire system, optimization would be much easier. And this WON'T result in a bureaucratic mess? Are you kidding me? It is much better to have many different entities than one single one. It lesses the bureaucracy.

It will do so in controlling structure, but it will reduce bureaucracy and paperwork in dealing between factories, shops, etc. Besides, most of the time, things will go on their own: companies will order products, products will be delivered, etc.

	05-07-2003 01:28									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Or you could look at the other side of the equation and see what a totally dismal politically run feasco the nationalized British Automobile & Aircraft manufacturing businesses were. They were the second largest industries in the world for both fields and state ownership turned them into fat, lazy, and incompetent wrecks which were fit for nothing else but bankruptcy.

Yup. British Leyland was a disaster. However Renault wasn't.

There's no hard and fast rules. Some work, while others don't. I can see a clear logic to nationalisation where national infrastructures are involved, but not industry in general. In addition, a sympathetic government and effective management has to be in place.

	05-07-2003 02:38									#164
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Laz, I never understood your political beliefs. Could you describe them, please?

	05-07-2003 16:50									#165
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BUMP.

	05-07-2003 17:12									#166
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What do we have left to argue ?

	05-07-2003 17:33									#167
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Nothing, and it disgusts me. I want some capitalists to come in and say that it's ****ed up, since it seems that Imran agrees with us ( Is the end of days upon us? )

	05-07-2003 17:37									#168
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Erm, no, Imran only agrees that the price is not the only factor of demand.

I somehow doubt he agrees that every large company should be made public

	05-07-2003 17:41									#169
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He said that it could be done, though. For Imran, that's mindboggling progress.

	05-07-2003 17:57									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel He said that it could be done, though. For Imran, that's mindboggling progress.

Having a leftist girlfriend is good for your health

	05-07-2003 17:58									#171
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does he still date her

	05-07-2003 18:13									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Laz, I never understood your political beliefs. Could you describe them, please?

Brutally pragmatist. I'm not a great one for toeing party lines and I don't go looking for ideological perfection. "Moderate left" is a rough summary.

	05-07-2003 18:24									#173
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Why don't agree with a full socialist agenda, then?

	05-07-2003 18:45									#174
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Because it doesn't work.

	05-07-2003 18:47									#175
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What don't you think will work in my system, for example?

	05-07-2003 19:13									#176
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Am I going to have to trawl back through pages to find out what that system is?

	05-07-2003 19:21									#177
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Nobody could even make a playable game with Azazel system, let alone a real economy. Entirely based on the personal prejudices of an inexperienced teenager.

	05-07-2003 19:25									#178
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Nobody could even make a playable game with Azazel system, let alone a real economy. Entirely based on the personal prejudices of an inexperienced teenager.

Care to explain further ?

	05-07-2003 19:38									#179
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oh no, my opinions have been fully rebutted!

	05-07-2003 19:47									#180
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Az:
The real problem with a completely centralized economy is that:

- it is difficult to make sure nobody will abuse that power. If all the economic power of a Nation falls into the hands of an institution (the State), the concentration of power within this institution in the hands of one man must be avoided at all costs. It requires solid institutions and solid democratic control. Corruption is an issue as well, that requires much monitoring.

- Complex societies create hundreds of new needs daily. Those can be needs for extremely small amounts of products, or new intermediary products used in some production process. If the production is wholly centralized, there will be a lag between the emergence of the need, and the time when it actually gets satisfied, after the whole bureaucratic process and allocation of resources take place. In these situations, individual initiative is much more efficient.