05-07-2003 20:03									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious How do you invision it?

I envision a system intermediary between Odin's anarcho-socialism and Azazel's centralism.
The basic idea is that the company's employees decide how the company is managed (i.e dominance of the workers in an internal democracy), and what its financial objectives are.

The State fixes prices of any significant good; it is up to the companies to make enough money with it, but the State can give subsides when the fixed priced is judged artificially low. It also owns big companies (despite not being involved in its daily management, unless it is a catastrophe), and can pour money in case it deems new investments to be necessary.

The Citizen has a private property on all his goods. For those who can't afford it, however, the State puts many opportunities at disposal to cover up basic needs, such as cheap public housing, cheap food and medication, cheap or free mass transportation.

Individual businesses are possible and encouraged. The State doesn't put its nose at all in individual businesses. When they grow into several-people businesses, they are subject to the law giving a say to the employees (much like if they were associates). These private companies are restricted from being big companies, to avoid them having any disproportionate political or economic power.

Bureaucracy must be kept to a minimum. Only prices of good of national interests should be fixed by the State. Fancy consumer goods, and the intermediary products allowing to produce them, should have their price regulated by the market. The creation of an individual business should be immediately doable, and the short paperwork has not to be done immediately.
The State acts as a client of big companies, but doesn't have to enact tons of bureaucratic production processes: these are done more efficiently by people working in the company. Of course, should the company not make enough money because of incompetence, it will be out of business.

The system has to be strongly democratic. Otherwise, the whole thing is useless and free market is better.

	05-07-2003 20:16									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Az: The real problem with a completely centralized economy is that: - it is difficult to make sure nobody will abuse that power. If all the economic power of a Nation falls into the hands of an institution (the State), the concentration of power within this institution in the hands of one man must be avoided at all costs. It requires solid institutions and solid democratic control. Corruption is an issue as well, that requires much monitoring.

a. corruption is always an issue.
b. That's what the separation of powers is for.

quote: - Complex societies create hundreds of new needs daily. Those can be needs for extremely small amounts of products, or new intermediary products used in some production process. If the production is wholly centralized, there will be a lag between the emergence of the need, and the time when it actually gets satisfied, after the whole bureaucratic process and allocation of resources take place. In these situations, individual initiative is much more efficient.

There is always a lag betwee the creation of a new need, and the rise of a product that would satisfy it. The companies themselves would be either big enough to have those labs themselves, or free enough to create a tender for a research facility, or other possibilities.

	05-07-2003 21:59									#183
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Someone mentioned that the solution was for the government to run some industries and the others could be privatized. But transportation and the gathering and controlling of natural resources wasn't in there. Would it be good if the state ran those? And Azazel, how does the state run banks in Israel work? If they work just fine, than there must be a way for state run businesses to work. And, when Sweden was a democratic socialist country, how did the state run businesses there work?

How about it's like this. The government controls the leadership of the state run industry, such as an oil company, and the more profit towards the government it makes the more the leaders get paid but if the company isn't serving the people well the management can be democratically removed.

	05-07-2003 22:02									#184
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Yes, in Israel, Banks run just fine.

	05-07-2003 22:07									#185
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No, I know they run fine I mean how does the system work? How is the management of the business put in there? How do they get incentive to run well and serve the public?

See what I meant in my last post was that when the leaders get paid more there's more incentive for them to run the company efficiently.

	05-07-2003 22:10									#186
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There are a couple of matters in Israel, that need adressing as a possible future model of state-run corps.:

-The power of the trade-unions must be deminished: the trade unions, and esp. their bosses have taken rediculous privileges.
-The process of appointment of directors must be cleansed, thoroughly, and politics must be removed from the appointing people. These days, all sorts of morons, and friends of ministers get appointed. And then people say "State corps don't work!". Of course they don't if you appoint your grandma as CEO.

	05-07-2003 22:16									#187
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Well if the government doesn't appoint the leaders of state run companies, who does? Wouldn't it be better if they were put into power democratically?

How can people say socialism can't work when it has in our country? The Tennessee Valley Association or whatever it was called was sort of socialist and it worked great.

	05-07-2003 22:29									#188
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod Well if the government doesn't appoint the leaders of state run companies, who does? Wouldn't it be better if they were put into power democratically?

The government, but a different, separate branch of the government. Elder civil servants, for example.

quote: How can people say socialism can't work when it has in our country? The Tennessee Valley Association or whatever it was called was sort of socialist and it worked great.

Because some people are interested in not having socialism, and have lots of persuasion power through media, and other entities. Many people believe them.

	05-07-2003 22:32									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The basic idea is that the company's employees decide how the company is managed (i.e dominance of the workers in an internal democracy), and what its financial objectives are.

How is their pay determined? What happens when the company goes broke? What happens to the profit?

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The State fixes prices of any significant good; it is up to the companies to make enough money with it, but the State can give subsides when the fixed priced is judged artificially low.

I thought you were against prices? How is that different from my proposal?

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It also owns big companies (despite not being involved in its daily management, unless it is a catastrophe), and can pour money in case it deems new investments to be necessary.

How do you make this fair? If the govt invests in one company and not another one won't the workers in the other companies be upset? I'm assuming that you are providing some reward system for success.

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The Citizen has a private property on all his goods. For those who can't afford it, however, the State puts many opportunities at disposal to cover up basic needs, such as cheap public housing, cheap food and medication, cheap or free mass transportation.

So the losers in the system only get their basic needs met. While the winners get all the goodies? Do you have any limits to that?

btw, there are a lot of basic needs that you didn't list. People need cash to pay for things they need. Life would such very bad if people could only get the free services that you listed.

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Individual businesses are possible and encouraged. The State doesn't put its nose at all in individual businesses. When they grow into several-people businesses, they are subject to the law giving a say to the employees (much like if they were associates). These private companies are restricted from being big companies, to avoid them having any disproportionate political or economic power.

Who gets to own their own business? After a business fails what happens? Is the owner responsible for the debt? Is he allowed to open up another business?

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Bureaucracy must be kept to a minimum. Only prices of good of national interests should be fixed by the State. Fancy consumer goods, and the intermediary products allowing to produce them, should have their price regulated by the market. The creation of an individual business should be immediately doable, and the short paperwork has not to be done immediately. The State acts as a client of big companies, but doesn't have to enact tons of bureaucratic production processes: these are done more efficiently by people working in the company.

That sounds a lot like the system I proposed. How is it different?

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Of course, should the company not make enough money because of incompetence, it will be out of business.

Then what happens to the employees?

Sorry for just questions basically, but I can't really critique your proposal without details. Like they say, "The devil is in the details."

	05-07-2003 22:36									#190
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What do you think about my system, Kidicious? ( x2 on the CPA location line! Spiffor, we're still waiting for you to join our maginicent party! )

	05-07-2003 22:41									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel What do you think about my system, Kidicious? ( x2 on the CPA location line! Spiffor, we're still waiting for you to join our maginicent party! )

I like your idea of additional branches of govt to accommodate the new functions.

Have you outlined it on this thread? I would like to look at it closer. What page is it on?

	05-07-2003 22:53									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious How is their pay determined? What happens when the company goes broke? What happens to the profit?

The pay is determined by the management, responsible before the employees through an internal democratic level (basically, employee's representation makes the board of directors). Every aspect of internal organization is decided pretty much the same way as today... Except that the employers will be voted out if they screw the workers too much.

quote: I thought you were against prices? How is that different from my proposal?

I didn't throw your whole proposal in the garbage. Having the State fix prices of national's interest goods makes sure they don't get out of hand.

quote: How do you make this fair? If the govt invests in one company and not another one won't the workers in the other companies be upset? I'm assuming that you are providing some reward system for success.

This is not a reward system for success, but rather an investment to allow the company to reach new, more ambitious goals. For example, if the State want to open a new highway between two cities, it is normal it gives a further investment in the Highway-Building company.
Investments don't have to be 'fair' to the workers, they have to follow national interests, thus being 'fair' for the population in general.

quote: So the losers in the system only get their basic needs met. While the winners get all the goodies? Do you have any limits to that?

Don't forget: the workers have now a significant say in the management. It is most likely to result in a lower income-spread within companies, and in the society in general.
But for the losers, the State is to give opportunities of covering basic needs, and should give some money to take these opportunities (hence, the State gives some money so that the loser affords the cheap public housing - however, if he has a tad more money spared, he could take a more expensive house).
I have no problems with differences in life standards, as long as all the basic needs are well covered, and that uncertainty about immediate future is disappeared.

quote: btw, there are a lot of basic needs that you didn't list. People need cash to pay for things they need. Life would such very bad if people could only get the free services that you listed.

The list wasn't exhaustive. Of course there is education as well, entertainment and culture should have free forms too (TV), there should be reductions for poor households to have good telecommunications etc.
However, the Disneylands, the jewels, the luxury homes, the high-end foods etc. definitely belong to how you choose to use your money. Like before, I take it the income spread will be quite low.

quote: Who gets to own their own business?

Anyone who has an idea, and who has either resources to build it by himself, or who can convince the public Bank for a 0% business-creation loan.

quote: After a business fails what happens? Is the owner responsible for the debt? Is he allowed to open up another business?

Nothing different than what happens today. Yes. Yes. However, making an individual business has incentives, since it gives opportunity to make big bucks while freelancing.

quote: That sounds a lot like the system I proposed. How is it different?

Again, I did not throw your whole idea into the trash. The State as a 'super-client' rather than as a 'super-manager' has always been more appealing to me.

quote: Then what happens to the employees?

They'll have to find jobs elsewhere, or go back to their studies. The State would need an efficient bureau coordinating the supply and demand of work, to make things faster.

	05-07-2003 22:53									#193
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I'm suprised Fezzie hasn't f*cked up this thread yeat.

My ideas of Anarcho-socialism is a way to get over the lag time Spiffor was talking about. If you have read the Sci-Fi novel Blue Mars you know the economic ideas I am talking about.

	05-07-2003 22:54									#194
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I've tossed a couple of ideas into the air here. look for them a couple of pages back. If you really want to, I'll put more thought into it.

	05-07-2003 23:00									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I've tossed a couple of ideas into the air here. look for them a couple of pages back. If you really want to, I'll put more thought into it.

We pretty much agree. I would tell you otherwise if it were not true .

	05-07-2003 23:02									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Odin I'm suprised Fezzie hasn't f*cked up this thread yeat. My ideas of Anarcho-socialism is a way to get over the lag time Spiffor was talking about. If you have read the Sci-Fi novel Blue Mars you know the economic ideas I am talking about.

Have you figured out what to do with the workers of your companies after the companies go broke yet?

	05-07-2003 23:08									#197
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They can form a new co-op I guess.

	05-07-2003 23:16									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel They can form a new co-op I guess.

NO! DUH! Or they can join other co-ops.

	05-07-2003 23:23									#199
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I still have no idea how would workers of the "K-mart" coop decide on the future of the company.

	05-07-2003 23:26									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I still have no idea how would workers of the "K-mart" coop decide on the future of the company.

About the same way the citizens of a country decide of its future. This concept called "democracy" was very alien 250 years ago, and only a few illuminati thought it could work

	05-07-2003 23:29									#201
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At this point in time and technology, I think that only a few key sectors should be centralized: most of the economy would run more smoothly in private hands, with regulations, as Skywalker said so long ago.

	05-07-2003 23:32									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Odin NO! DUH! Or they can join other co-ops.

Who pays for them to form the new co-ops?

	05-07-2003 23:41									#203
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I'm trying to get information from the decentralized economy camp so that I can see who is accountable in their system and who recieve the rewards for taking risks in their system.

In capitalism individuals take REAL risks and they are both accountable for loss and rewarded for success. In the centrally planned system society takes the risks and society is accountable for the loss and rewarded for success. I can't really tell how this is worked out in the decentralized system. That's the kind of information that I need. For example in Odin's system workers of failed companies can just go join another co-op or start another one. There is no cost for the risks that that co-ops take. If the co-ops are successfull they will have to pay for the losers to start up new co-ops or let them join theirs; so there is little or no reward for success.

	05-07-2003 23:47									#204
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So in a democratic company the workers can vote on the financial thingys like how much the wage is and such? If the company fails and goes bancrupt you can join another one?
Somehow I doubt that could work. I mean where is the incenitive to make your company successfull? You could just vote for maximum wage till the company runs out of money and goes bancrupt. Ok you loose your job ... so what? You made a good bunch of money ... join the next company and repeat step 1 ...

	05-07-2003 23:48									#205
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quote: Originally posted by GePap At this point in time and technology, I think that only a few key sectors should be centralized: most of the economy would run more smoothly in private hands, with regulations, as Skywalker said so long ago.

But with more and more technology emerging, and more and more logistical tools appearing, the strengths of a centralized economy will grow. In my opinion, they already outweigh the market for the goals I forsee for a government. All I want is that people will be generally open to the idea.

	06-07-2003 00:12									#206
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quote: He said that it could be done

I said it could be done... I didn't say it would work . But it'd be a spectacular mess.... worth getting the popcorn out to watch .

	06-07-2003 00:15									#207
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backtracking doesn't suit you well, Imran.

	06-07-2003 03:07									#208
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quote: Elder civil servants, for example.

What are those?

	06-07-2003 03:11									#209
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod What are those?

Various possibilities. Former judges, for example. Teachers, people from the academic world, etc. etc.

	06-07-2003 03:12									#210
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I think state-run companies can work, but the question is, where's the incentive for the company to do well? If you make it so the members of the company get better wages (like I previously suggested without thinking) it's just like a private business. BTW, why is everyone talking about how the Soviet Union didn't work? It did work, for a while they were the second most powerful nation in the world.

I still want to know how Sweden's system worked. Certain industries were state-run there and there wasn't a disaster.