07-07-2003 08:07									#1
	A Revelation Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: [20:51] [Chieftess] You know, I have one of the strangest looking continents... [20:52] [Trip] the ISDG continent is pretty strange [20:52] [Chieftess] well, that one was modded [20:52] [Trip] was it? [20:53] [Chieftess] you can tell [20:53] [Trip] :\ [20:53] [Trip] that bastard gave us all that jungle [20:53] [Trip] I oughta ring his neck [20:53] [Chieftess] there's a tile that they forgot to fill in. [20:53] [Chieftess] I think they did that as a sick joke. [20:53] [Trip] a tile they forgot to fill in? [20:54] [Chieftess] Ocean where there should be coast [20:55] [Trip] really? where? [20:55] [Chieftess] you'll find it soon [20:56] [Trip] :\

The reason the dual chokepoints seem odd? Probably manufactured.

There could also be other "game tweaks."

I saw the ocean tile near the northern chokepoint... which suggests even more that the 1-tile passage was created and not natural.

	07-07-2003 08:14									#2
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If the team that created the map/started the game has an awesome starting area (which seems indicated by their score...), do we cry foul or allow others to do so?

EDIT: I say that if we intend to cry foul, we at least wait until we've beat down our direct neighbors and shown we can kick *ss with a lousy start first

	07-07-2003 08:18									#3
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I agree with Arnelos.

	07-07-2003 08:36									#4
	Screenshot of the area in question Get a bigger avatar today!

E_T

	07-07-2003 08:38									#5
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According to CT, it's physically impossible for the random map generator to put an ocean tile there.

	07-07-2003 08:38									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Going off a Turn 76 map that BigFree posted, you can see it clear as day here, NW of Shaharazade:

	07-07-2003 08:40									#7
	And without the tile Identifier box Support Apolyton

E_T

	07-07-2003 08:48									#8
	Got spare money?

I'm with Arnelos, if we win, we get even MORE bragging rights over the other civs. And the way CGN's been acting lately at the UN, I'd loooove to see those poor tactless arrogant idiots lose

	07-07-2003 09:25									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I think it is BS to mod the map in any way. This proves it was modded. If they moded it, they could have assigned starting locations. I'm interested in seeing just how good of a start CGN got.

Does anyone know of any connections between mongoose and any other gaming sites?

	07-07-2003 09:29									#10
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According to the information which I could dig up, mongoose from 1BC (the ISDG administrator) was the only one with access to the BIX, so GCA or anyone else has only had access to the save files.

There was going to be a 1BC team, but it dropped out, and mongoose then offered to be the ISDG administrator. So it's unlikely that mongoose would favor one team over another.

In any case, I posted a thread at 1BC on this topic, so soon we should be able to settle this issue.

	07-07-2003 10:20									#11
	Got spare money?

Can you give us a link to that post (at that other site) Trip?

	07-07-2003 10:22									#12
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http://civ3dg.1bigcommunity.com/com...47%3A00+AM&iG=y

Mongoose responded by saying that the map was not customized in any way, nor were the start locations picked.

However, from every source I've heard from, the RNG CAN'T put ocean next to coast...

	07-07-2003 10:43									#13
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Then why can you just show mongoose201 why is it not a truly random map?

	07-07-2003 11:09									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

Agreed. Let's not sit on this issue; then people could potentially point fingers at us or something. When you discover evidence of foul play, you do not sit on it.

And that SURELY is evidence of foul play. Ocean by coast indeed!

	07-07-2003 11:23									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

Yes, send mongoose the above screen shot and ask for an explanation. Maybe he had a modded Editor...? But let's see what he says. He could be a lackey for the CGN group! All of the proposals for rules changes are og Miccofls doings it seems, but mongoose posted them all. I know that is a weak connection, but it is one.

	07-07-2003 12:44									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

• What evidence do we have that an ocean tile cannot be next to a coast tile? (other than: "all my sources say so")
  
• Mongoose could have modded the map to be in favour of the 1BC team - then, when 1BC had dropped out, he could have decided to use the modded map anyway (with or without giving an advantage to any team on purpose).
  

	07-07-2003 12:53									#17
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Mongoose wasn't going to do the map until 1bc dropped out. That is when he offered his services. I'm pretty sure. Get Beta in here to confirm.

Actually, it would be good to get Beta in here on general principle. He was our rep at the UN to get the game going and for a long while after that.

	07-07-2003 13:01									#18
	Inflate your Upload Space

I would like to know the link between Mongoose and Miccofl (or any other CGN people). I do agree that Mongoose posting these decisions that apparenlty only Miccofl and co. want established is a little suspicious...

	07-07-2003 13:42									#19
	Tired of ads?

I post a lot at CGN and know most of them well. I feel certain that they did not cheat, nor that they are aware of them receiving any special favours.

Take my opinion with as much weight as you feel it's worth.

Something weird has definitely happened, though. Either it's a RMG bug (unlikely - never seen it mentioned before) or mongoose somehow, and for some reason, modded the map.

	07-07-2003 21:58									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Maybe it's a meteor strike location? A bomb crater?

	08-07-2003 00:31									#21
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

We should just show it to mongoose and see what he says... no big deal.

	08-07-2003 01:01									#22
	Increase Your PM Length

How much time should we give mongoose?

	08-07-2003 01:04									#23
	Suffering from ads?

I know... it's the Bermuda Triangle.

Don't go there with our Galley...!

	08-07-2003 08:09									#25
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It looks to me like the chokepoints might of been artificially created (both of them actually), but I wouldn't be willing to make accusations based on it.

In any case, I don't think any of the teams on our continent are at a real disadvantage because of it. Certainely no more so than would of been possible from blindly generating a random map and never even glancing at it.

	08-07-2003 10:01									#26
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Personally, I am VERY glad we have those artificial chokepoints, as they've made this otherwise blah continent into a wonderful theatre for warfare. Only 2 paths of attack and a giant lake in the middle that is just begging us to use galleys to launch a surprise invasion.

--Togas

	08-07-2003 12:12									#27
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Maybe there is a little treasure island in the middle?

	08-07-2003 14:00									#28
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I sure hope not! Mongoose should not have modded this map at all. It's not for him to decide how the game should play out. I wouldn't doubt that he assigned start locations to each team.

	08-07-2003 14:30									#29
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Mongoose should not have modded this map at all. It's not for him to decide how the game should play out.

Precisely.

Did mongoose say at the start: "The random map was a bit boring so I added some minor changes to make it more interesting"? If not, and we have proof of him editing the map, then I say that is a serious thing.

	08-07-2003 16:06									#30
	Put an end to popups!

I wouldn't call one tile _proof_ unless you have access to the random map generation code (in the editor not just in the game since he said he used the editor to check the start positions, which means he probally generated the map in the editor as well) to look at to prove conclusively its not possible.

All we really have is past observations, most of which were likely made on maps the game generated not the editor, which does vary slightly I think.