08-07-2003 22:36									#31
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quote: Ever tried to get a gun?

Yes, I own 4.

quote: What does 'untrained' mean?

somebody not trained

quote: How is 'registration' the same as training?

Registration would require taking courses in firearms usage and safety.

quote: And btw, if you licensed and registered ever gun and gun owner, you'd still have rampant ownership of guns. And, of course, this wouldn't stop kids who steal them from their fathers. So what does it actually accomplish? I think it'd be nice to go in an licence and register all guns, I'm just blanching at the immense cost of all that, and for how much gain?

It means less guns in the hands of stupid people. It won't eliminate gun crime, but rather, reduce it. And make it easier to track guns. I think the government should fund studies to find out where guns used in crimes come from and then try to eliminate the problem.

	08-07-2003 22:46									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Ever fired a proper target pistol? You'd be hard put to use one of those in a gunfight.

As a matter of fact I have. I'm not sure but I don't believe I was talking exclusivly about target pistols. Here is what I see as resonable when someone is about to purchase a handgun.

1. Make sure he or she is not a felon.
2. Make sure he or she knows how to use one
3. Require that person to register that firearm.

Some people may say that the person should provide secure places and devices such as lock boxs and safety locks. What would really be wrong with that. In some states a person is required to maintain their car in a safe condition before they can get tags.

Now if your a nice law abiding citizen who only wants to shoot paper targets then you should have no problem doing those things?


**wonders how in the hell he got on the side of those arguing for gun control...

	08-07-2003 22:47									#33
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quote: As a matter of fact I have. I'm not sure but I don't believe I was talking exclusivly about target pistols. Here is what I see as resonable when someone is about to purchase a handgun. 1. Make sure he or she is not a felon. 2. Make sure he or she knows how to use one 3. Require that person to register that firearm. Some people may say that the person should provide secure places and devices such as lock boxs and safety locks. What would really be wrong with that. In some states a person is required to maintain their car in a safe condition before they can get tags. Now if your a nice law abiding citizen who only wants to shoot paper targets then you should have no problem doing those things?

quote: **wonders how in the hell he got on the side of those arguing for gun control...

You're smart and have a lot of common sense.

	08-07-2003 23:10									#34
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In a better world/country, you'd have a strict schedule of regular checks on gun owners, to see if they are correctly using their guns (ie: not using them at all, except for hunting and the like) and keeping all the necessary safety measures (to prevent their derranged children from going on shooting sprees, for example)....

	08-07-2003 23:21									#35
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The US doesn't have a monopoly on this type of thing.

From Last Week

By JOERG VOELKERLING
Associated Press Writer
Published July 2, 2003, 1:37 PM CDT

COBURG, Germany -- A 16-year-old student armed with a pistol and a revolver opened fire in his classroom Wednesday, wounding a school psychologist and fatally shooting himself.

Two students were slightly injured in the rush to flee the public school in this Bavarian town at about 9 a.m., state police said. One pupil jumped from a first-floor window but landed unhurt.

The teenager walked into the classroom and fired a first shot toward the chalkboard, which ricocheted into the ceiling, sending the teacher and her pupils fleeing, police said, revising earlier accounts that the classroom teacher was shot.

A second teacher who serves as school psychologist tried to enter the room to calm the student. He shot her in the thigh, said Bernhard Schmitt, a police officer at the scene. The 16-year-old then turned the revolver on himself, police said.

"We know nothing yet about the motives," police spokeswoman Ingrid Beyer said. "The teacher is getting medical attention."

Bavarian authorities said the boy was repeating eighth grade but was in no danger of being held back again. He was considered quiet and not a problem student, Schmitt said.

It was unclear where the student had obtained the weapons, although his grandfather belongs to a local shooting club.

According to the school's Web site, there were 34 pupils enrolled in the class and a total of 757 at the school, which prepares students for vocational training or apprenticeships.

Coburg is located about 145 miles north of Munich.

In April 2002, 17 people in the eastern city of Erfurt died in Germany's deadliest school shooting. Robert Steinhaeuser, a 19-year-old who had been expelled, shot and killed 13 teachers, a police officer and two students before fatally shooting himself.

Last October, a teen entered a school near the southwestern city of Stuttgart and took four students hostage at gunpoint, but the kidnapping ended after several hours without incident. The 17-year-old was recently sentenced to 3 1/2 years in jail.
Copyright © 2003, The Associated Press

	08-07-2003 23:24									#36
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It does happen elsewhere... but not as often. You're over 50 times more likely to be shot dead in the USA than you are in the UK. That's a shocking statistic and one for which there are no excuses.

	08-07-2003 23:27									#37
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1 out of every 20 statistics are inherently flawed...

Guns don't kill people, people do
Guns don't kill people, it is those little hard things that come out of them

Honestly, what are the comparisons for homicide rates in the US vs. UK? I think if someone wants to kill someone they will find away, gun or no gun.

	08-07-2003 23:27									#38
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Sorry, I'll take my chances. It's worth a higher chance of dying by gun fire to not have to live in the UK.

	08-07-2003 23:39									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Honestly, what are the comparisons for homicide rates in the US vs. UK? I think if someone wants to kill someone they will find away, gun or no gun.

I don't have time to look for them now, got to go out but they are MUCH lower in the UK. I'll find them tomorrow if I remember (Ought to save them somewhere this comes up so often.) As people always point out here though it's normally the people in the poorer areas getting shot so most of the Apolyton posters who tend to live in nice areas aren't so bothered about it.

It's a lot easier to kill someone with a gun than, say, a knife, and a lot less messy.

	08-07-2003 23:41									#40
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quote: We've had a gun licensing scheme in New Zealand for as long as anyone can remember. What happens is that you apply to the police and they ask your family and friends what they think about you owning a gun. If no one produces evidence that you are a nutter you get a license. You are expected to be paranoid about gun safety (and all the gun owners I have met are), but the fact is that you are basically left alone unless you do something stupid.

Sounds good .

quote: somebody not trained

And what is 'trained'. How do you get 'trained'? A 4 hour state course? A private course on gun safety, what?

quote: Registration would require taking courses in firearms usage and safety.

Would you have to pay for these courses or would the government provide them to you at no cost?

quote: It means less guns in the hands of stupid people.

Perhaps, but perhaps not. There are many stupid people that can pass training.

	08-07-2003 23:43									#41
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Well you could also move to germany. As long as you are not in any sort of classroom you should be save

	08-07-2003 23:50									#42
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how the hell would gun control prevent people from getting guns? if you determined to get a gun (which you would be if you a mugger for example), you can get one easily and you'll have a good time evading the cops cause they won't have the ballistics data nor a serial number nor a place of purchase from your illegal hand gun

	08-07-2003 23:53									#43
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Yes, but it's a lot easier to get a gun when you're in a country that has more guns than people.

	09-07-2003 00:28									#44
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Gun crime is so common in the USA that there would be something wrong when a day goes by without a fatal shooting. Stopping such things would be a cultural ruination seeing how it adds a certain sharp edge to the cheesecake of society.

[/joking]

	09-07-2003 00:39									#45
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StarChild:

quote: Gun crime is so common in the USA that there would be something wrong when a day goes by without a fatal shooting

did you know that Philly has had 142 murders between Jan 1 03 and June 10 and this is at about the lowest in philly's recent history apparently so yeah... one city alone got a homicide every day...

	09-07-2003 00:42									#46
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guns dont kill people, damn it! Canada has a much higher gun per capita ratio than the US and they have a fraction of the shootings.... why? becasue of culture... kids need to be raised with a sense of whats right and wrong in out society (as I am a cultural relativist) which often fails to happen in US households for various reasons.

Me for example. In high school I had guns and combat knives in MY room (and enough ammo to kill the world... never too much ammo, thats my motto), yet i didnt go shooting up my school or neighborhood. Ive watched the most violent Movies and played the most Violent video games since birth... yet I dont go killing people, nor have the urge too... why? 'cus i was taight what was friggin right, and what was friggin wrong when i was young and impretionable

	09-07-2003 00:45									#47
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quote: why? 'cus i was taight what was friggin right, and what was friggin wrong when i was young and impretionable

that **** don't happen no more... at least not as much as it used to happen...

	09-07-2003 00:57									#48
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It was shocking to read, that we're actually 2nd in the gun rate compared to population. We have loooooooots of guns. But were hunters and we only kill foreigners .

	09-07-2003 00:59									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I think the Founding Father's had the right idea... specifically mentioning that we have the freedom to have armed, regulated militias, not rampant, unregulated private ownership of guns.

See Emerson v. United States for the leading analysis on Second Amendment history and intentions.

	09-07-2003 01:00									#50
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quote: Canada has a much higher gun per capita ratio than the US and they have a fraction of the shootings.... why?

Your reasoning was lame, here's mine:

because all the guns are owned by backwoods hill-billies who either know how to use a gun, slip by the census, and hide their dead better.

	09-07-2003 01:04									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Your reasoning was lame, here's mine: because all the guns are owned by backwoods hill-billies who either know how to use a gun, slip by the census, and hide their dead better.

i hope this was a joke.

note: my reasoning was VERY incomplete due to lack of caring to explain.... there are many, many reasons for the high rate of shootings in the US, i was just making the point that the relationship between gun ownership and shootings is SPURIOUS.

	09-07-2003 01:06									#52
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yeah, I was fooling

	09-07-2003 01:51									#53
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quote: But were hunters and we only kill foreigners

*Crosses Finland off of list of places to visit*

	09-07-2003 02:32									#54
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quote: how the hell would gun control prevent people from getting guns? if you determined to get a gun (which you would be if you a mugger for example), you can get one easily and you'll have a good time evading the cops cause they won't have the ballistics data nor a serial number nor a place of purchase from your illegal hand gun

I would have figured someone such as yourself (speaking for the urban population in Philly) would realize that most guns in the ghetto come from suburban whites who's guns get burglarized. I'm surprised...

	09-07-2003 03:06									#55
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* How many more...?

Was this a slow news day for the BBC? Do they cover shootings in Jackson as well? Anyway this is what I get for not paying attention to local news for a few days.

	09-07-2003 03:13									#56
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I think it's a rather sad reflection of American gun crime that a 5-person shooting is considered a "slow news day"...

	09-07-2003 06:03									#57
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* I think it's a rather sad reflection of American gun crime that a 5-person shooting is considered a "slow news day"...

I'm just kind of curious why such a thing rates attention on the other side of the pond. You didn't answer my question about Jackson, MS though.

	09-07-2003 06:15									#58
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quote: I'm just kind of curious why such a thing rates attention on the other side of the pond.

Britain doesn't have high shooting rates... and I'm sure they get tired of hearing about Prince William and what kind of deodorant he uses.

	09-07-2003 08:08									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It's easier to get a gun than a job in this country. Ever tried to get a gun?

I didn't have to. One day I was strolling down Time Square and stopped by the front of a gun shop. A young black man approached me, offering submachine guns for sale at $300.

	09-07-2003 09:03									#60
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Did you bought any?