09-07-2003 09:17									#61
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quote: I would have figured someone such as yourself (speaking for the urban population in Philly) would realize that most guns in the ghetto come from suburban whites who's guns get burglarized. I'm surprised...

how does that change anything i said? and nah, there's other ways of getting guns but i'm sure plenty originate from something like that... but anyway, it dont change my point at all...

	09-07-2003 09:21									#62
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Speer: are ther any gun factories in the city? nope... do gangsters possess Firearm owner ID cards? nope... where do you think guns come from?

	09-07-2003 09:23									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Britain doesn't have high shooting rates...

And?

	09-07-2003 09:24									#64
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quote: And?

It's news to them... I'm connecting the dots for you a lot these days, are you feeling all right DD?

	09-07-2003 09:27									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Sava It's news to them...

There's shootings in alot of places. What about this one attracted international attention?

	09-07-2003 09:27									#66
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quote: What about this one attracted international attention?

I'm not about to try and understand the Brits...

	09-07-2003 09:31									#67
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Sava:

let's say guns were completely made illegal... now it's going to be next to impossible to get rid of guns completely just because of the massive logistics. so you're still going to have hordes of guns everywhere. and if not, guns can be imported... for example, huge numbers of german-made guns end up in the US. it honestly shouldn't be too hard to sneak some in even if they are illegal. and there's also a trade called gun-smithing that you can learn at those technical 'institutes'... dont forget that.

	09-07-2003 10:03									#68
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ooh a great opportunity to give this thread a low rating

	09-07-2003 11:46									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I didn't have to. One day I was strolling down Time Square and stopped by the front of a gun shop. A young black man approached me, offering submachine guns for sale at $300.

If they were automatic, that is super illegal... i doubt they were... you still have to have a hand gun liscence and go thru the waiting period for a background check tho... pretty disturbing if he wee just to sell it to you and let you walk out with it then and there

	09-07-2003 12:27									#70
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for my part anybody can own whatever type of weapon they want... at a shooting club. If you want to have a bazooka, go for it, but it never leaves the club building... The only people allowed to carry firearms out on the streets should be either soldiers or law enforcement officers.

Same thing goes with ammunition. each bullet should have a unique number. Before you start shooting you sign for those numbers. When afterwards a bullet is used illegally, which has your number on it you'll have a hell of a lot explaining to do...

Simple isn't it ? All the nutcases who kick on firearms can shoot their way to happines in a controlled environment (less accidents) and everybody out on the streets in possession of a firearm is commitong a crime ...

	09-07-2003 13:39									#71
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I have no problem with the general ownership of hunting rifles or shotguns: Very little cirme is commited by people who won guns in the back woods. Autmoatic weapons are certainly problematic and should be highly, highly regulated. BUt to me handguns are the most trouble: they are the ones most commonly used for crimes, and if the idea is to fight of "the man" when the black helicopters come to take your children away, most handguns are the least effective firearms you can have to stand up to "him" (or anyone armed with something much bigger).

You can add so-called assault weapons (ie not real assault weapons which are by definition selective fire, but semi-automatic rifles and carbines that look like assault weapons) to that list, as less than 1% of all gun crimes are committed with them. Automatic weapons have been very heavily regulated since the 1930s, and I have never heard of a single case where a legally owned automatic weapon has been used in a crime.

	09-07-2003 13:50									#72
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH I don't have time to look for them now, got to go out but they are MUCH lower in the UK. I'll find them tomorrow if I remember (Ought to save them somewhere this comes up so often.) As people always point out here though it's normally the people in the poorer areas getting shot so most of the Apolyton posters who tend to live in nice areas aren't so bothered about it. It's a lot easier to kill someone with a gun than, say, a knife, and a lot less messy.

You are more likely to die from a stab wound than a bullet wound, though obviously it is easier to cause a bullet wound than a stab wound if you know how to shoot. The UK has gone completely around the bend recently with their gun restrictions. Even the British Olympic shooting teams have to go to France to practice. Interestingly, while seizing the property of law abiding gun owners and making it practically impossible to legally own a firearm, the UK has seen an enormous increase in gun crime due to guns being smuggled in from outside. So your stats seem to be heading in all the wrong directions, less freedom and more gun crime.

	09-07-2003 13:55									#73
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True. It was a very reactionary response to a guy going crazy with a gun and killing some kids. There was a public outcry and people demanded it. I think our old regulations were fine as they were.

I guess that means that there are so many murders in the US because it's such a fvcked up place.

	09-07-2003 14:04									#74
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH True. It was a very reactionary response to a guy going crazy with a gun and killing some kids. There was a public outcry and people demanded it. I think our old regulations were fine as they were. I guess that means that there are so many murders in the US because it's such a fvcked up place.

That's a lot of our problem. Almost half (48%) of our murders are committed by African Americans (12% of the pop.), who as a group are enormously unhealthy by almost any measure. Another large chunk of murders are committed by crackers, who also have a lot of social pathology, and a much longer history of personal violence. I should know, I am one. Another fairly large percentage of gun crime can be directly associated to the drug war/ drug trade. If you take the remaining numbers, the U.S. doesn't look so bad in comparison to Europe, especially when you consider how much freedom we have to own guns (ie opportunity).

	09-07-2003 15:00									#75
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Yeah but don't forget that the greatest subset of our murders are drug related as well.

	09-07-2003 15:04									#76
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Yeah but don't forget that the greatest subset of our murders are drug related as well.

Point taken, and to be fair to African Americans there is a lot of overlap between their rate of homocide and the killings related to drugs as well.

	09-07-2003 18:33									#77
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Sava, do something about that avatar. Every time I see it I can't stop laughing. It's starting to hurt.

	09-07-2003 19:19									#78
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Fact is guns are just a tool used to kill people. Long before there were guns anywhere in the world, there's always been lots of killing. Today in mainland China guns are just about impossible to get, so people use industrial explosives on their enemies' housing. For all I know, guns could even be an improvement over other methods, as it's kind of hard to miss when you're using a knife or dynamite.

	09-07-2003 19:46									#79
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What about this one attracted international attention?

Because any news in the US lights up the news wires.

	10-07-2003 01:30									#80
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quote: Same thing goes with ammunition. each bullet should have a unique number. Before you start shooting you sign for those numbers. When afterwards a bullet is used illegally, which has your number on it you'll have a hell of a lot explaining to do...

im sure those serial numbers could be scratched off and stuff... but the system would definately make it harder to kill people with guns. I wouldnt like it, but i wouldnt mind sacrificing my freedom to take my gun to my ranch if to save a few lives.

	10-07-2003 01:34									#81
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I think people should revert back to using bows and arrows, swords, axes, and pikes... That would be much more fun! Highlander style!

	10-07-2003 01:53									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman (Re: Some fool's "brilliant" idea for serial numbers... on bullets.) im sure those serial numbers could be scratched off and stuff... but the system would definately make it harder to kill people with guns. I wouldnt like it, but i wouldnt mind sacrificing my freedom to take my gun to my ranch if to save a few lives.

Not to mention all the ammunition already in existence.

We're talking billions of rounds, here. Please think next time you have a brilliant idea of this magnitude. Sheesh.

	10-07-2003 02:52									#83
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This country was built on guns and butter sorry; weapons belong in the hands of the people.They are our abilty to defend our basic rights against unreasonable forces criminal or governmental which would compromise them.People have and will die by the gun,or the bludgeon or the rope,what will we have next rope controle...mind controle.

	10-07-2003 04:24									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Yes, I own 4.

Why? Are you too lazy to reload?

	10-07-2003 04:25									#85
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quote: Originally posted by rah Sorry, I'll take my chances. It's worth a higher chance of dying by gun fire to not have to live in the UK.

I was going to make the point that being shot dead in the UK was a blessing...

	10-07-2003 04:31									#86
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH I don't have time to look for them now, got to go out but they are MUCH lower in the UK. I'll find them tomorrow if I remember (Ought to save them somewhere this comes up so often.) As people always point out here though it's normally the people in the poorer areas getting shot so most of the Apolyton posters who tend to live in nice areas aren't so bothered about it. It's a lot easier to kill someone with a gun than, say, a knife, and a lot less messy.

IIRC homicide rate in the US is down to around 6.1 per 100 000 per annum (hit a high of >10 in early 1990s)

Homicide rate in Canada is ~1.7 per 100 000 per annum. In the UK (and most other Euro countries) it's just a bit lower. 1.5 or so?

Handgun homicides are overrepresented in the US as compared to Canada or Euro countries. In the US they account for 40-50% IIRC. In Canada it's more like 15% and in the UK it's more like 5% (this last figure is dredged up from a discussion of 2 years ago, so it may be inaccurate)...