09-07-2003 02:16									#31
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Slowwhand, that's bs

Where I live, quite about everybody is atheist, gay or not.

Maybe in puritan America, this situation is kinda different, but over here church is literally empty, there are no new priests whatsoever, so that's bollox what you're saying.

Of course, there are still some very old people that go to church, but these elderly people are dying away so...


The only things that remain popular are crappy ceremonies such as marriage, etc, basically I find that hypocrite.
If you don't believe in God and you have no affiliation to church then why bother marrying for the church

	09-07-2003 02:56									#32
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Most of the civilised world has no problems with athiesm or is athiest. The United States is an exception...due to its 19th century isolationism, all kinds of fundamentalism grew up that would have been crunched out otherwise.

Athiests are people who believe that there is no God or who don't know. Agnostics are people who don't care for whutever reason.

Likewise, religion can be a double-edged sword: It has been used for inspiration, and has been used as an excuse and a thing to throw all your problems to and blindly hope for the best.

	09-07-2003 02:58									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer I think people get atheism confused with agnosticism... you can not possibly be a man of science and be an atheist as there is no conclusive proff that God does not exist... you can say that for all practical purposes, it can be assumed he does not exist, but that would only be agnosticism...

You're wrong.

I can believe one does not exist, because in the only form that one could exist, it would be completely incapable of affecting the universe, and therefore irrelevant.

	09-07-2003 03:00									#34
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I'm talking about here, Trajan, I said that; so shut the fuk up with your dumbass comments.

Go quit something else.
That's what you're good at, isn't it ?

Last edited by SlowwHand on 09-07-2003 at 03:07

	09-07-2003 03:02									#35
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* Kuciwalker is confused

Was sloww talking to me or to mrmitchell?

	09-07-2003 03:03									#36
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edit: i just don't see how anyone can really cope with the idea that death is the end

	09-07-2003 03:03									#37
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calm down cowboy

	09-07-2003 03:06									#38
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SS
The "I'm looking forward to a good lunch" quote is a good reason
Also, usually, athiests are mature enough (er, offensive wording, I know) to not need a reason to live or they have betterment of themselves or society as a reason.

EDIT: To your own edit of death being an end, I suppose athiests either think of it as "This is my one shot, I'm gonna kick ass this time" or the betterment of society thing I mentioned. Yeah, I know, I'm giving bad answers

Sloww
Come to think of it...who WERE you talking to anyways?

	09-07-2003 03:09									#39
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Trajanus.

	09-07-2003 03:14									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer though i will say this... religious people just about always work hard, pay their bills, and take care of their kids and community... so i mean, you got to love religious people just for that even if their missionarying can get annoying

Since 95% of all people in the US claim to be religious, this is just a typical BAM statement on your part, Speer. It was my experience that most religious people were hypocrites or self-righteous windbags who were more interested in others not having any fun than in living a Christian life. And as religion exists over the whole world, one must necessarily come to the conclusion that religions people are in no way superior to atheists.


*******!

	09-07-2003 03:14									#41
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The main thing theists use god for is an object to base their morals on. I believe that it is not important whether you believe the higher power to be god or yourself. What matters is whether you believe that the higher power has a moral obligation to do right.

	09-07-2003 03:16									#42
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"I'm an atheist, and that's it. I believe there's nothing we can know except that we should be kind to each other and do what we can for other people." - The late Katherine Hepburn

	09-07-2003 03:19									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Even most atheists believe it's possible god exists.

I've never met an atheist who said he/she believed that God could exist. Every atheist I've ever spoken with is adamant, there is no God. We do not lack a belief in god, we know it doesn't exist.

	09-07-2003 03:21									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer I think people get atheism confused with agnosticism... you can not possibly be a man of science and be an atheist as there is no conclusive proff that God does not exist... you can say that for all practical purposes, it can be assumed he does not exist, but that would only be agnosticism...

You're the one who is confused. Woooo, I love it when a non-scientist spouts ignorant rantings about what scientists can and can't believe!

First, atheism does not claim that it is proven God doesn't exist. Most atheists do not believe God exists, while a smaller number actively believe God does not exist, but none (AFAIK) would state it has been proven that no god exists.

Agnosticism as you describe it is atheism. It would still be lack of belief in god.

Second, a scientist being an atheist is perfectly reasonable, because science is about observing natural phenomena. It is nothing to do with ontological debates over the existence of a supernatural deity. Regardless, it is a cardinal rule of science is that unless the phenomena or is observed, it isn't considered true. Since no one has proven the existence of god, or even come up with more than the barest of circumstantial evidence for god, it is most reasonable to not believe in god, from a scientific point of view.

	09-07-2003 03:24									#45
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand What surprises me is the number of Gay atheists.

Most gay people I know are Christians. Many fall into one of two groups, those that theink the church is wrong about homosexuality, and those that believe the church is right. Many, many teen suicides come from the latter group.

	09-07-2003 03:24									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Most of the gays I know, even if not actively religious, are not atheists. I know plenty of church-going gays, including a surprising number of ardent Catholics. It is just here, as a healthy chunk of ALL Apolytoners are atheist, according to polls we've had. MrFun is a gay Christian, and I'm sure there are other gay theists here...somewhere

Almost all of my friends, period, are atheists/agnostics.

I guess that's what happens when people are educated.

	09-07-2003 03:25									#47
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I've never met an atheist who said he/she believed that God could exist. Every atheist I've ever spoken with is adamant, there is no God. We do not lack a belief in god, we know it doesn't exist.

I agree, I've never heard the terms atheist & agnostic used as Boris has before.

Agnostic has always meant don't know/don't care, atheists have always been staunch believers that God does not exist. *shrug*

	09-07-2003 03:25									#48
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I've never met an atheist who said he/she believed that God could exist. Every atheist I've ever spoken with is adamant, there is no God. We do not lack a belief in god, we know it doesn't exist.

Your personal experience is fine, but it's not what the majority of atheists believe, according to opinion polls on the subject. Most atheists acknowledge it is possible a god could exist, although the probability is quite remote for them. There are several such atheists on this very board, including loinburger, myself, Sava, and many others.

To me, it is nonsensical to say one knows for certain there is no god whatsoever, considering one's ability to observe the universe is hopelessly small and confined. The most one can reasonably say is that, "as far as I can tell, god doesn't exist."

	09-07-2003 03:27									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov To me, it is nonsensical to say one knows for certain there is no god whatsoever

Of course it is.
It is also nonsensical to have faith that a god does exist.

Which is why professing ignorance (the definition of agnostic, btw) is the only sensible choice.

	09-07-2003 03:35									#50
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Atheist's say there is no God.
Agnostic's say they believe in parts of the Bible.

How you twist it from there is up to you, I suppose.

Which brings up another question.
Are there differences then in Agnostics, like Methodists and Baptists in the Protesant faith ?

	09-07-2003 03:37									#51
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In my view atheist is someone who recognises that there's no proof for the existence of a god. You do not need conclusive proof that it does not exist to be able to prove that. The burden of proof lays on the people that accept the existence of a god, in a similar way as the burden of proof lies on the shoulders of people who claim UFO sightings, people that have seen the Loch Ness monster and people that say that the canyons on Mars were dug by little green men with 6 eyes. If someone comes with conclusive proof of the existence of a god, i would accept it as such.

Agnostics in my opinion are people that don't really care either way. They do not believe in/worship a higher power, but have not fully examined the situation and reached a conclusion either way. They're the vast mass of people in the middle, like there's for any argument, that couldn't give a flying rat's arse.

Last edited by lightblue on 09-07-2003 at 03:44

	09-07-2003 03:37									#52
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"Almost all of my friends, period, are atheists/agnostics. I guess that's what happens when people are educated."

*sigh*

	09-07-2003 03:41									#53
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quote: Agnostic's say they believe in parts of the Bible.

Now this is the most incorrect definition so far.

I've never once met someone who professed to being agnostic talk about how they believe in parts of the bible...

As far as I'm concerned, if you believe any of the bible you at least someone religious and not agnostic.

	09-07-2003 03:43									#54
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 "Almost all of my friends, period, are atheists/agnostics. I guess that's what happens when people are educated." *sigh*

There is a correlation between education levels and religious participation...make of it what you will.

	09-07-2003 03:47									#55
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http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm

quote: Definition of Agnostic: Agnosticism is a concept, not a religion. It is a belief related to the existence or non-existence of God. An agnostic is a person who feels that God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved, on the basis of current evidence. Agnostics note that some theologians and philosophers have tried to to prove, for millennia, that God exists. Others have attempted to prove that God does not exist. Neither side has convincingly succeeded at their task. Are they Theists? No, because Agnostics do not believe in a God, or a Goddess, or in multiple Gods, or multiple Goddesses or in a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses. However, some Agnostics consider themselves to be Atheists. That is because the term "Atheist" has two slightly different meanings: A person who positively believes that no God(s) or Goddess(es) exists. E. Haldeman-Julius suggests that "The atheist perceives that history, in every branch of science, in the plainly observable realities of life and in the processes of common sense there is no place for the picture of a God; the idea doesn't fit in with a calmly reasoned and realistic view of life. The atheist, therefore denies the assumptions of theism because they are mere assumptions and are not proved; whereas the contrary evidences, against the idea of theism, are overwhelming." 1 This is the definition of Atheism used by most Christians, other Theists, and dictionaries of the English language. A person who has no belief in a God or Goddess. Just as a newborn has no concept of a deity, some adults also have no such belief. The term "Atheist" is derived from the Greek words "a" which means "without" and "Theos" which means "God." A person can be a non-Theist by simply lacking a belief in God without actively denying God's existence. This is the definition of Atheism used by most Atheists. Some Agnostics feel that their beliefs match the second definition, and thus consider themselves to be both Atheist and an Agnostic. Such confusion is common in the field of religion. We have found 17 definitions for the term "Witch," eight for "cult," and six for the "Pagan." -- all different. A lack of clear, unambiguous definitions for religious terms is responsible for a great deal of confusion and hatred. It makes dialog between Agnostics and Theists very difficult. An agnostic usually holds the question of the existence of God open, pending the arrival of more evidence. They are willing to change their belief if some solid evidence or logical proof is found in the future. However, some have taken the position that there is no logical way in which the existence or the non-existence of a deity can be proven.

Agnosticism has nothing to do with whether or not one believes in god. It is about believing there can never be any proof or disproof of god.

Someone who is "uncertain" of the existence of god is, by default, atheist. There are only two possibilities--theist and atheist. They are mutuall exclusive and encompass the entire range of belief. If one is not a theist, one is an atheist, and vice-versa. Since theism is defined as the belief in a god, lacking a belief in god is atheism. Uncertainty about god's existence means one doesn't believe in god, ergo one is an atheist.

Slow, your definition is soooo off-base it's funny!

	09-07-2003 03:49									#56
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Asher, neither the fact that you're Canadian, nor the fact that you're bisexual, nor the fact that you don't believe in a Creator makes you always right, contrary to your own belief.
I simplified too much.
Agnostics are wimps, as I said in a thread long ago.

One entry found for atheist.
Main Entry: athe·ist
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-ist
Function: noun
Date: 1571
: one who denies the existence of God



Main Entry: 1ag·nos·tic
Pronunciation: ag-'näs-tik, &g-
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnOstos known, from gignOskein to know -- more at KNOW
Date: 1869
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

	09-07-2003 03:51									#57
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Are there differences then in Agnostics, like Methodists and Baptists in the Protesant faith ?

Since Agnosticism has nothing to do with belief in god, one could be of any relgious faith and still be an agnostic.

Any Christian who believes that it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of god and that the truth of god is unknowable would be agnostic. An agnostic theist, to be exact.

	09-07-2003 03:58									#58
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Yeah, you know how they say that "the pen is mightier than the sword"?

"Well, they never thought about the fact that the photon is faster than the electron." -hv

	09-07-2003 12:53									#59
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Asher, neither the fact that you're Canadian, nor the fact that you're bisexual, nor the fact that you don't believe in a Creator makes you always right, contrary to your own belief.

No, but the fact that I am right usually goes a long way in making me right.

quote: Agnostics are wimps, as I said in a thread long ago.

Agnostics are the wimps, and theists are the ones who use the crutch of an afterlife to bring meaning to their sad little lives? Touching.

Boris:
I'm confused how you keep contradicting yourself.
You say: "Agnosticism has nothing to do with belief in god", but the very definition you quoted says "It is a belief related to the existence or non-existence of God".

I also disagree with your binary "theist/atheist" system, I still think there's three levels. Theists believing in God, agnostics not caring and professing they don't know, and atheists believing there is no God.

This system makes most sense to me, because of the words definitions (source: Websters)

Theist: One who believes in the existence of a God; especially, one who believes in a personal God; -- opposed to atheist.

Agnostic: n. One who professes ignorance, or denies that we have any knowledge, save of phenomena; one who supports agnosticism, neither affirming nor denying the existence of a personal Deity, a future life, etc.

Atheist: One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being.

----

Seems pretty cut & dry to me.

	09-07-2003 13:12									#60
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quote: "Almost all of my friends, period, are atheists/agnostics. I guess that's what happens when people are educated." *sigh*

I felt the exact same way after reading that.

quote: There is a correlation between education levels and religious participation...make of it what you will.

I'd like to see you prove that.