09-07-2003 00:16									#1
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from the thread on god by Sava is that most of the nontheists picture a god I wouldn't want to follow either (usually as the Christian God)

so of course they reject Christianity (if I thought God was like that, I wouldn't want to beleive in Him either)

so is that the main problem with aitheists? their view of god is one that no-one would want to beleive in, so they don't?

Jon Miller

	09-07-2003 00:20									#2
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The main "problem" with atheists is they see how high unlikely a God is, and if that God did exist and wants worship and asks we live life like he dictates, he's an *******.

	09-07-2003 00:28									#3
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I think people get atheism confused with agnosticism... you can not possibly be a man of science and be an atheist as there is no conclusive proff that God does not exist... you can say that for all practical purposes, it can be assumed he does not exist, but that would only be agnosticism...

	09-07-2003 00:32									#4
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A view of what God is has to be given to me by others, because I don't know any God at all really.

As opposed to some other people, I don't "feel" a God, I don't "see" him, and I don't "sense" anything too.

I think it's silly to just 'suppose' there is a God simply because there should be a God. Why do we have to accept there is a God if we have nothing going on with that supposed God?

Things such as luck, or happiness or wisdom are not necessarily 'given' or experienced by/through God. Some people can't seem to accept that some things are just there, abstract things that have nothing to do with the extraordinary, the unexplainable.

That's basically why I'm atheist. If there wasn't a religion or a church, I wouldn't even consider or ponder about God, just because I don't know it, meaning I don't know it exists, and the lack of a God doesn't hinder my happiness or my life in general.


I can understand that others have that feeling that without God they'd be unhappy, though. But after all, what you don't know, you can't miss

	09-07-2003 00:33									#5
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I would like to have a god somehow. But I realize its just the easy way out for ppl. to make them feel better, when some loved one dies or whatnot "Uh no! ... he is not really dead being wormfood, he is at some better place and we can meet him again when we die ... "

	09-07-2003 00:40									#6
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maybe the fact that we are here, that there are things, and most important, maybe the fact that therte is empty space - thus objects to fill it, and also our own awarteness of being, is evidence of god. HE dosn't have to be a being who consiously makes things, or lives in 'heaven'.

	09-07-2003 00:41									#7
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as to there being nothing after we die, why is this so terrible? what was there before we were born, and did that state of being effect us at all

	09-07-2003 00:41									#8
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Albert, the fact that God doesn't exist in the practical is pretty much accepted now, right?

It's just that people tend to relate all abstract notions to God. that's just bollox. It hasn't got to do anything with being rational, but simply accepting that some abstract things are what they are, and that we're not inspired by some higher/other power (or whatever they call it) that we call God.

Of course, what is God, anything got a definition for it, or explain what it is or how you view it? That at least is quite important in this kind of discussion. Also the fact that everybody sees God differently doesn't make this easier!

	09-07-2003 00:44									#9
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man maybe the fact that we are here, that there are things, and most important, maybe the fact that therte is empty space - thus objects to fill it, and also our own awarteness of being, is evidence of god. HE dosn't have to be a being who consiously makes things, or lives in 'heaven'.

Well, you're certainly contradicting the hardcore christians (and others of course ) that claim God is a creating power.. He is the bringer of happiness and everything that is.. (yeah uh-uh now doesn't that sound corny )

	09-07-2003 00:48									#10
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how are you an athiest and not an agnostic, trajanus? are you positive there is no God or do you not know for sure but live your life assuming there is none?

	09-07-2003 00:48									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus Well, you're certainly contradicting the hardcore christians (and others of course ) that claim God is a creating power.. He is the bringer of happiness and everything that is.. (yeah uh-uh now doesn't that sound corny )

but i am disagreeing with all these people, i am saying god isn't like that, i mean, we can't understand such a thing, otherwise we wouldn't say things like 'god is infinate', if we understood god we would know for sure, but we don't therefore he must be something other then how we percieve him, and as i said, the fact things exist might be definate proof, simply because it exists.

	09-07-2003 00:51									#12
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though i will say this... religious people just about always work hard, pay their bills, and take care of their kids and community... so i mean, you got to love religious people just for that even if their missionarying can get annoying

	09-07-2003 00:57									#13
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My atheism has nothing to do with any of the purported virtues or vices of any deity. I'm an atheist because I've seen no convincing evidence for one's existence. I don't feel I need belief in god at the moment. I am capable of living a moral, fulfilled life without believing in a god, so I'm not sure why exactly I should believe in one when there is no evidence for its existence.

The image of god you worship is up to you, of course, and you can believe whatever you want. But you should realize that your image of the Christian god seems arbitrarily at odds with what the Bible says (if the Christian god is the same god as Yahweh in the Old Testament, I think moral objections to such a god are obvious).

	09-07-2003 00:59									#14
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quote: I'm an atheist because I've seen no convincing evidence for one's existence. I don't feel I need belief in god at the moment.

That's agnostic, not atheist.

	09-07-2003 01:08									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Asher quote: I'm an atheist because I've seen no convincing evidence for one's existence. I don't feel I need belief in god at the moment. That's agnostic, not atheist.

Not really.

Agnostics are literally people who believe the truth about God is unknowable. They can be either theistic or atheistic. The word has been bastardized to mean "unsure," but that's not what it should be.

Theism = belief that God exists
(A)theism = lack of belief that God exists

So someone who is "unsure" is still athiest, since uncertainty equals not believing.

Now, atheists are in two types:

1) Does not believe God exists
2) Believes God does not exist.

There is a bit of a difference between the two.

	09-07-2003 01:20									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller so is that the main problem with aitheists? their view of god is one that no-one would want to beleive in, so they don't?

If God were like how I grew up to believe he was (i.e. a profoundly just and benevolent creature who treats everyone equal), I'd believe in him.

Unfortunately, I've learned that God is largely a personal experience. There are and have been hundreds (probably more like thousands) of different religions (not to mention all the different denominations and sects of Christianity). Partly because of that, I simply cannot believe how any God could possibly exist. And even if one (or more) would exist I fail to see how that would really make any difference.

In short, I'm a hard atheist. God does not exist, plain and simple. I understand it's not a logical certainty, but neither is the existence of pink unicorns... I'm willing to take that chance.

	09-07-2003 01:25									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Not really. Agnostics are literally people who believe the truth about God is unknowable.

Depends how you view it. I've always been told (and viewed) that agnostics are people who just don't know either way if a God exists.

Atheists are people who believe it's impossible for God to exist.

The "a" infront of theists tells you it's the polar opposite of a theist, which to me means they believe it's impossible for God to exist.

So how I look at it is:

Believe in God: Theist
Don't know/care: Agnostic
Believe God is impossible: Atheist

	09-07-2003 01:30									#18
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What if a person believes that God COULD exist? That's certainly not indicating belief...

"if that God did exist and wants worship and asks we live life like he dictates, he's an *******."
But why are you automatically pairing god with wanting worship? It seems like that's the only god that can exist to you. Is it impossible for god to not be an *******?

	09-07-2003 01:32									#19
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I used to think that there might be a god (gnostic), but now I think that if I'm weak enough to try to blame my problems on someone else (or that someone higher up in a spirtual hierarchy can somehow 'absolve' me of my sin through prayer, fasting, tithing, or whatever), then the blame lies with the weakest link - me.

And honestly, if there IS a 'god' to whom we can attribute the current state of the universe, I'd be the first one in line to punch him (or her) in the head and scream, 'What the fvck were you doing?!?"

	09-07-2003 01:34									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Depends how you view it. I've always been told (and viewed) that agnostics are people who just don't know either way if a God exists.

Those people would still be atheists.

quote: Atheists are people who believe it's impossible for God to exist.

No. Very few atheists believe this, as it is rather an impossible position to assert.

quote: The "a" infront of theists tells you it's the polar opposite of a theist, which to me means they believe it's impossible for God to exist. So how I look at it is: Believe in God: Theist Don't know/care: Agnostic Believe God is impossible: Atheist

That's not how the "a" works. There are only 2 possibilities concerning belief = having it or not having it. Having it = theism. The opposite of theism (made by adding the "a") is atheism, which simply means not having belief.

Not knowing or not caring is still atheism, since it entails a lack of belief.

Technically, Agnosticism has nothing to do with belief in whether or not God exists, but rather in whether or not the true nature of God is knowable. Gnostics were an early Christian sect who believed they could know the absolute truth about God. Agnosticism was developed as a term in the 19th century, and means the opposite (one can never know the true nature of God).

	09-07-2003 01:35									#21
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quote: Originally posted by st_swithin And honestly, if there IS a 'god' to whom we can attribute the current state of the universe, I'd be the first one in line to punch him (or her) in the head and scream, 'What the fvck were you doing?!?"

and how could any one disagree!

*btw, I am second

	09-07-2003 01:38									#22
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 What if a person believes that God COULD exist? That's certainly not indicating belief...

A person believing something doesn't indicate their beliefs?

	09-07-2003 01:40									#23
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Their belief is in possibility, not in god.

They're not saying god doesn't exist because he hasn't been proven, but they're saying that anything's possible.

	09-07-2003 01:45									#24
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*douple post, see below

	09-07-2003 01:46									#25
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I believe God exists

I believe God does not exist

I believe God could exist

---

All beliefs are very ambiguous and has nothing to do my life nor my reality.

	09-07-2003 01:52									#26
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 Their belief is in possibility, not in god. They're not saying god doesn't exist because he hasn't been proven, but they're saying that anything's possible.

Even most atheists believe it's possible god exists. Technically, you have to believe almost anything is possible. But probable?

Even so, unless one actively believes in God, one does not believe in God, since belief denotes [relative] certainty. Lack of belief in God = atheism.

	09-07-2003 02:00									#27
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you peoples need some Fear and Trembling!!!

	09-07-2003 02:00									#28
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What surprises me is the number of Gay atheists.
And I'm not making any smartass remark about Gays, so don't even try.

So why?
I've made mention of Gay men that attend or have attended the church I go to, so why ?
Iit just here? The environment that breeds strangeness ?

	09-07-2003 02:09									#29
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Most of the gays I know, even if not actively religious, are not atheists. I know plenty of church-going gays, including a surprising number of ardent Catholics.

It is just here, as a healthy chunk of ALL Apolytoners are atheist, according to polls we've had. MrFun is a gay Christian, and I'm sure there are other gay theists here...somewhere

	09-07-2003 02:10									#30
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hehe, gaytheists