09-07-2003 04:03									#61
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Norway sends conservatives into apoplectic fits because it has an enormous living standard and a welfare state. Hell, if you're depressed, Norway will pay for you to take a vacation someomeplace warm, and you don't have to come back 'till you're feeling better. God I wanna be a Norwegian citizen.

'I'm with ya, chief' - Robin Williams

	09-07-2003 04:04									#62
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quote: The premise that the fall of the ruble was because of bloated economy numbers is wrong.

I didn't say that was ALL of it, I said it was part of it! And bloated economic numbers will make a currency definetly fall. Furthermore, some of it is complicated because the ruble that is comparable is the foriegn exchange ruble with the after 1992 ruble. The in-state ruble was non-transferable... could only be used in the USSR. There was a seperate foreign exchange ruble.

However, partly because of the revealing that the numbers were boosted, the ruble took a hit (this was even a little bit before the eventual fall and takeover by Yeltsin). After the fall of the USSR the ruble fell even more, but it could have been saved... if it wasn't for the fact that more and more was being known how much of Russian economic 'data' was actually known to be less than official numbers showed (that data being revealed resulted in the devaluation of the currency).

	09-07-2003 04:26									#63
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HDI	rank	1975	1980	1985	1990	1995	2001
1	Norway	0.858	0.876	0.887	0.900	0.924	0.944
2	Iceland	0.862	0.884	0.893	0.912	0.918	0.942
3	Sweden	0.862	0.871	0.882	0.893	0.924	0.941
4	Australia	0.843	0.859	0.872	0.886	0.926	0.939
5	Netherlands	0.863	0.876	0.890	0.904	0.925	0.938
6	Belgium	0.840	0.857	0.871	0.892	0.923	0.937
7	United States	0.864	0.883	0.896	0.911	0.923	0.937
8	Canada	0.866	0.881	0.904	0.924	0.929	0.937
9	Japan	0.851	0.875	0.890	0.906	0.920	0.932
10	Switzerland	0.872	0.884	0.891	0.904	0.912	0.932
11	Denmark	0.871	0.879	0.886	0.893	0.910	0.930
12	Ireland	0.819	0.832	0.847	0.871	0.895	0.930
13	United Kingdom	0.840	0.847	0.857	0.877	0.916	0.930
14	Finland	0.835	0.854	0.872	0.894	0.907	0.930
15	Luxembourg	0.835	0.849	0.864	0.886	0.913	0.930
16	Austria	0.839	0.853	0.867	0.890	0.908	0.929
17	France	0.846	0.862	0.874	0.896	0.912	0.925
18	Germany	..	0.859	0.868	0.885	0.908	0.921
19	Spain	0.834	0.851	0.865	0.883	0.901	0.918
20	New Zealand	0.844	0.850	0.861	0.870	0.898	0.917
21	Italy	0.838	0.854	0.862	0.884	0.900	0.916
22	Israel	0.794	0.818	0.838	0.857	0.879	0.905
23	Portugal	0.785	0.799	0.821	0.847	0.876	0.896
24	Greece	0.831	0.847	0.859	0.869	0.875	0.892

This and more can be found on page 241 of the stats tables.

	09-07-2003 04:38									#64
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It does seem that the top countries are very close.. only .012 seperates #10 Switzerland from #1 Norway. I guess that can easily change if one of the factors changes (like education in this year).

	09-07-2003 04:42									#65
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The Hamptons is for SVCKERS!

	09-07-2003 07:41									#66
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It would be interesting to see how individual states would fare on that list.

	09-07-2003 07:43									#67
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I think per-capita-income may be artificially inflating the US's ratings. A few hundred rich people are screwing up this curve.

	09-07-2003 07:45									#68
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Well you have to ask why don't other countries 1% have the same level of wealth as our 1% do? And it can't be explained by taxes, because it is WAAY more than theirs.

	09-07-2003 07:48									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Oh, and look, we've got 907 Cellphone users for 1000 people.

Big deal. We probably average to more than 1 mobile per person.

	09-07-2003 07:50									#70
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quote: Well you have to ask why don't other countries 1% have the same level of wealth as our 1% do? And it can't be explained by taxes, because it is WAAY more than theirs.

A combination of things.
1. We're the most powerful, richest, and productive nation...
2. The system is designed to be beneficial to the "elite"
3. The "elite" have in essence run the government since 1789... with the exception of a few, strong, progressives... Teddy, FDR
4. We've never had to fight a total war on our soil...
5. We have an economic empire
6. Abundance of natural resources... not so much oil left... but still... this was the "New World"

	09-07-2003 07:55									#71
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quote: We're the most powerful, richest, and productive nation...

Well, shouldn't that count on the ranking then?

quote: The system is designed to be beneficial to the "elite"

Which makes the US different from other countries how? If you don't think Sweden benefits the 'elite', you ain't looking hard enough. Every system benefits some elite.

quote: We've never had to fight a total war on our soil...

Are you forgetting that conflict between 1861-1865, perchance? And, even so, why should this count against a country in this survey?

	09-07-2003 07:56									#72
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Stop Editing!

quote: We have an economic empire

More claim to be high on the list!

quote: Abundance of natural resources... not so much oil left... but still... this was the "New World"

Which differs from Norway and Sweden how (Norway especially with their oil)?

	09-07-2003 07:59									#73
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quote: Id hardly say 8th place in the world sucks... and who gives a damn about these reports anyway? As hard as they try, these things will always be too subjective to be worth much to me anyway.

	09-07-2003 08:02									#74
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quote: Well, shouldn't that count on the ranking then?

That doesn't necessarily translate into a high quality of life for the majority of Americans.

quote: Which makes the US different from other countries how? If you don't think Sweden benefits the 'elite', you ain't looking hard enough. Every system benefits some elite.

Perhaps... but more so in this country. I'm reading a good book right now, "The People's History of the United States 1492-present" by Howard Zinn. He makes an interesting point that the American Revolution was more about benefiting the wealthy rather than true freedom... it explains why slavery was allowed to continue. It's more complicated than that.... perhaps you should read the book and then we can discuss it.

quote: Are you forgetting that conflict between 1861-1865, perchance? And, even so, why should this count against a country in this survey?

that doesn't even begin to compare to the destruction in Europe, East Asia, and Russia during the 20th century.

quote: Stop Editing

heh, sorry

quote: More claim to be high on the list!

huh?

quote: Which differs from Norway and Sweden how (Norway especially with their oil)?

look on a map, tell me who is bigger and who has more diverse terrain with more resources... and if you say Norway or Sweden I'll smack you.

	09-07-2003 08:04									#75
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quote: That doesn't necessarily translate into a high quality of life for the majority of Americans.

I think it does.

quote: I'm reading a good book right now, "The People's History of the United States 1492-present" by Howard Zinn.

Oy... no wonder. I'll have to dig up an SMDB thread where people question Zinn's validity.

And the Communist Manifesto and Engle's work is enough communist propaganda for me .

quote: look on a map, tell me who is bigger and who has more diverse terrain with more resources... and if you say Norway or Sweden I'll smack you.

Compare populations as well.

	09-07-2003 08:08									#76
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quote: I think it does.

so Bill Gates' 12 Lambourginis translates into a higher quality of life for me? Explain.

quote: Compare populations as well.

Yes, this also works in our favor. Compare population densities.

	09-07-2003 08:50									#77
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Sava: not for you, but average, yes.

Duh. It's an average.

	09-07-2003 08:54									#78
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quote: so Bill Gates' 12 Lambourginis translates into a higher quality of life for me? Explain.

How about instead, Bill Gates new, big house (more work for construction companies and electrical engineers, etc.) or expanded buisness (creation of more jobs).

Being rich and productive makes everyone better off. Being more productive decreases the prices of goods so more can afford them.

quote: Yes, this also works in our favor. Compare population densities.

A greater population density is easier to serve. They are all concentrated, meaning you don't have to build everywhere (can leave it as forest, etc).

	09-07-2003 08:58									#79
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quote: Duh. It's an average.

an average... but not an effective indicator of the vast majority of Americans...

for instance...

South Carolina Geography majors are projected to have a significantly higher salary than their national counterparts. The reason? Michael Jeffrey Jordan. Outliers generally screw up averages. You think MJ's success has any bearing on the general success of SC geography majors?

quote: Being rich and productive makes everyone better off. Being more productive decreases the prices of goods so more can afford them.

only if you have MORE PEOPLE that are rich... consolidating wealth in a smaller number of people HURTS the standard of living for everyone else.

	09-07-2003 09:02									#80
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quote: consolidating wealth in a smaller number of people HURTS the standard of living for everyone else.

Not if the rest have a decent amount of money themselves. If you take out the top 1% of the US wage earners, you end up with a per capita income right there with other 1st world countries. It ain't the top, but it's right in the pack of other 'civilized' country.

	09-07-2003 09:08									#81
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's actually extremely difficult to get citizenship there.

Huh, ATM they are paying and giving away free land to Belgians and the Dutch to come over there.

Picky..., maybe.. difficult...nah...

	09-07-2003 09:09									#82
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quote: It ain't the top, but it's right in the pack of other 'civilized' country.

That's all I propose... take out the top 1% and then measure. I know the quality of life for the rich... I watch MTV Cribs... I want to know how WORKING America is doing.

	09-07-2003 09:18									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Being more productive decreases the prices of goods so more can afford them.

No it doesn't, it depends on the market.

Clearly, price of various versions of Windows hasn't been going down.

	09-07-2003 09:19									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: consolidating wealth in a smaller number of people HURTS the standard of living for everyone else. Not if the rest have a decent amount of money themselves. If you take out the top 1% of the US wage earners, you end up with a per capita income right there with other 1st world countries. It ain't the top, but it's right in the pack of other 'civilized' country.

You sure? I don't have the numbers but that doesn't look right.