14-07-2003 04:26									#91
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Okay I understand.

The drones are probably afraid of an early war, while the hive is afraid of a late game war. Well actually the hive is only really afraid of late game backstabbing, and is concerned about a late game war.

Kody

	14-07-2003 04:48									#92
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http://www.civgaming.net/forums/sho...ighlight=buster

Buster made a short appearance on the civ gaming boards.
I wonder if he managed to visit the apolyton boards.

Kody

	14-07-2003 06:53									#93
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I don't understand. They are afraid of us for now? I wouldn't guess so. We are the last in the power graph afterall. Although their scout may find that he is surrounded with quite a few of our army

I still don't understand. If they are afraid of an early war with us, why would this take them longer to make a decision? I guess maybe they don't really want to pact with us but was afraid if they say so they'll be attacked? Is that it?

Anyway, if they want a pact I guess I agree with the majority go for the h**k of it, just be prepared I guess.

	14-07-2003 07:36									#94
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu I don't understand. They are afraid of us for now? I wouldn't guess so.

Googlie Disclaimer:

OK - what follows bears no relation to what the Drones might actually be discussing, but here's what I'd be adding to the discussion if I were participating ... (but of course, I'm not):

***************************************

> You are one tech away from Impact weapons (you have both Info Nets and Applied Physics). Who on Earth makes Applied Physics one of their first five techs to discover unless they are on a momentum, warlike, impact weapons track?

> You are last in population, even with your Hive +1 growth advantage, so what the heck have you been building if not Colony Pods - just how many laser units are there roaming around your landmass?

> you have indicated that Doc Mobility and Doc Flex are high on your research list (together with Ind Auto). That portends Impact Rovers, the strongest unit and potential gamebreaker before noodles and choppers

> Every base you build comes equipped with a preformed Perimeter Defense

> You had no hesitation in sharing a portion of your map - showing the Sunny Mesa - only a faction somewhat arrogant in its strength would reveal so much so early

*****************************

Do you still think the Hive shouldn't be feared this early in the game?

G.

	14-07-2003 07:59									#95
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Of course all will be revealed once we pacted. The Hive have made a few mistakes, and our base placement wasn't that spectacular. Also our terrain is quite dry, save for the valley. After from sunny mesa and a huge mountain, (both of which their only speciality is that they are high) the Hive does not really have special terrain such as Moonsoon Jungle, Uranium Flats, Garland Crater, The Ruins, Pholus Range, Borehole Cluster, Manifold Nexus, Mount Planet and Unity Crash site.

	14-07-2003 08:16									#96
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In other words, from the unknow lies the fear. Once we pact and map exchanged, wow, what a big surprise that the Hive is not as fearful. Let's backstab! Is this a possible course?

	14-07-2003 08:27									#97
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That I guess why the Hive is afraid of backstab, that they may realise we are not doing as well as they thought.

	14-07-2003 08:30									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Vev ....a huge mountain, (..... of which their only speciality is that they are high)

Harrumph (**Offended**)

That mountain has 7 tiles at the 3500 meter level, four of which have river sources running thru, one of which is an energy special. It's twice as effective as Mount Planet.

It took some time to set it that way, as when I added a new river source it diverted the others - maybe five attempts to get it right, IIRC

It's gonna be an awesome Energy Park

And the river bordering the Sunny Mesa wasn't random either.

I don't just plonk factions' colony pods on any old land, you know ...........

harrumph again

G.

	14-07-2003 08:35									#99
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Okay, I admit putting rivers down is a pain and juggling with terrain height is a pain too as it affects moisture and rivers. We do have a cool energy park site, just that it will be a bit dry for the moment.

	14-07-2003 08:36									#100
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by HongHu In other words, from the unknown lies the fear. ........... Let's backstab! Is this a possible course?

i don't think it's so much the unknown as the presumed

And, of course, backstabbing is a legitimate tactic in PBEMs of all sorts. But as I said somewhere else. the active PBEMers in this game are jealous of their reputations. I think the "let's pact, infiltrate then nuke them" crowd have no reputation to worry about in the forums 'cos they aren't very active PBEMers.


Buster, Mark. Mongoose and SL3 are all active PBEMers and I'd be surprised to see them "backstab". They'll obviously try to extract the best possible deal for the Drones in any negotiations, and they'll expect the Hive to do the same.

Just don't assume that they hold all the cards

G.

	14-07-2003 12:18									#101
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quote: They'll obviously try to extract the best possible deal for the Drones in any negotiations.

I hope they don't try to test my patience. What looked like hive arrogance was actually my goodwill. They will get a fair deal unless I get pressured otherwise by my superiors, or they decide to pressure me too much.

If they vote for a pact, the following will occur.

* We decide if we want to pact.

* Ask if the drones can arrange a inter-faction forum. To faciliate long term relations.

* We decide once and for all the loyalty and honour of the hive. Will we be willing to stick with our pact mates through thick and thin. If we decide that the answer is yes, we place it into our Constitution and Laws that we don't break our promises to pact mates.

* I write details for the permanent pact. I will write a long list detailing the terms of the pact. How joint-faction decisions will be made, conditions of the pact, (Eg they cannot place bases on our grounds, we cannot be pressured into war against the cycon unless it's our own choosing)

* The permanent pact is approved by the Hive.

* This permanent pact is proposed to the drones. Negoitations will occur about the pact.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some of the conditions I'm considering for the pact.

Conditions
- Inter-factions issues are determined by (hive percentage vote * 0.5) + (drone percentage vote * 0.5). Our factions get equal say in inter-faction issues. Minimum of 4 votes in each faction's poll. See Joint faction Behaviour section for issues that can be determined by this.
- Drones are not allowed to colonise the hive's main continent, or make use of the continent for crawler or city purposes.
- Hive is not allowed to colonise drones continent, or make use of drone terriority for crawler or city purposes.
- Both factions can get any tech from at any time from the other faction. (full tech sharing)
- One ambassdor from each faction is allowed into the other faction's forums to monitor affairs for duplicity. The ambassdor goes under a different username to avoid other factions finding out about our pact.
- Mounting attacks are determined independantly by each faction.
- Units in the other faction's territory must be withdrawn if requested.
- If war is decided and forces one faction to break a pact, blood truce or treaty. The faction must be allowed honorable conduct. The faction has the option of warning the enemy of the change in alliance and can then wait 10 years before ending it. Although if the other faction wishes it can begin its war straight away.

Seperate faction vote, and both factions must agree.
- The inital terms of the pact cannot be changed, unless there is a minimum of 70% agreement from both factions. Minimum of 4 members per faction voting in each poll.
- Raising land to connect the two continents requires seperate approval from both factions. The pre-land raising borders continue to hold in the agreement of terriority.
- Spoils of war are negotiated by the both factions.
- Further joint faction behaviour can be added when both factions agree to add it.

Joint faction behaviour.
- Another faction attacking either drones or hive is automatic war for both.
- Enemies of one faction are treated as enemies of the other faction. To declare war joint voting is required. This is may be an unoffical agreement for war.
- To end a war joint voting is required.

Concessions
- If the drones have 75% or less land on their main continent compared to the hive. They can get hive military assistance and plan a joint invasion to get land from another faction. The land in the campagin belongs to the drones until the drones are equal in terrority to the inital hive continent. After which the splitting must be negotiated. The minimum amount of military the hive is required to use for assistance is proportional to half of the attack of the drone force amassed for the war.
- The hive is able to veto the joint dipolmatic stance towards the CyCon. Unless the CyCon are actively at war with the drones.

Expected behaviour
- Both drones and hive should send reinforcements in the event of an invasion of the home continent.
- Research should be pursued together.

Kody

	14-07-2003 12:32									#102
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You know if we show that we trust them and help the drones whenever we can, do you think they will still want to take us out? Generally only scum would turn on friends.

By the way....

quote: Who on Earth makes Applied Physics one of their first five techs to discover unless they are on a momentum, warlike, impact weapons track?

Why the heck did we choose applied physics?

Kody

	14-07-2003 18:37									#103
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The Kody Pact seems pretty comprehensive to me. I would hope people who are more familiar than me in PBEMs would comment on that. And GooglieGod, would you be able to give us your valuable insight about how does it compare to what is normally done?

I have a couple questions. First if somebody attacks drones and Hive automatically say war against it, would it reveal that we are pact factions? Or do we wait until we contact the enemy then declare war? Second the ambassadar issue, would it be considered as DL and forbidden in Poly?

I'm now support pact if we can get, based on GooglieGod's evaluation on Drone's reputation.

	14-07-2003 18:38									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Kody Why the heck did we choose applied physics?

'Cos you were fast tracking to Impact weapons (I remember the discussions)

G.

	14-07-2003 18:39									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Kody Why the heck did we choose applied physics? Kody

This was questioned at the time too. I think the answer is we couldn't choose two white tech back to back so we had to choose something else and we chose AP for defensive reasons.

	14-07-2003 19:05									#106
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The Pact Document

It's fairly comprehensive (I haven't seen any quite so detailed in other PBEM's I'm in or am CMN'ing)

Having said that, I think there are a couple of additions that could be made:

Automatic exchange of other factions' commlinks

you don't want your pactmate to have the monopoly on negotiations with a third party (but you might empower them to speak on your behalf, and vice versa)

automatic triggering of war if either faction is attacked

You might want to amend this to read "without undue delay" (if you are, say, pacted to that 3rd party, and have a probeship cruising in its waters, you might want time to get it elsewhere before the "all units are returned to base" gets invoked when you break your second pact.)

In fact, you might even want to write into the agreement that you'll hold a Poll in the Hive to see if you want to break pact with that 3rd faction (your pact with them may not even allow for this eventuality)

(hive percentage vote * 0.5) + (drone percentage vote * 0.5)

So if you have, say, 88% in favour and they have 15% in favour, the motion carries? (1/2 x 88 plus 1/2 x 15). I don't see this as flying. The discussions around 1 faction 1 vote or ACDG members' votes showed that most players believe that the Hive will vote monolithically. I can't see Buster agreeing to an automatic outvoted status.

He'll insist on "Unanimity or agree to differ" being the norm, I'd wager

But that (Buster's position) would be the norm in any PBEM I'm involved in.

quote: Originally posted by Honghu would it reveal that we are pact factions?

As soon as one faction gets infiltrated, its pact status becomes known (and status of any others pacted with that one). I don't think any faction (maybe with the exception of Roze) can build defensive probes in all bases quickly enough before getting visited by another faction's probes.

G.

	14-07-2003 19:46									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie The Pact Document (hive percentage vote * 0.5) + (drone percentage vote * 0.5) So if you have, say, 88% in favour and they have 15% in favour, the motion carries? (1/2 x 88 plus 1/2 x 15). I don't see this as flying. The discussions around 1 faction 1 vote or ACDG members' votes showed that most players believe that the Hive will vote monolithically. I can't see Buster agreeing to an automatic outvoted status. He'll insist on "Unanimity or agree to differ" being the norm, I'd wager But that (Buster's position) would be the norm in any PBEM I'm involved in. G.

I agree on that one it should be "one faction one vote".

	15-07-2003 04:08									#108
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Draft Pact Document

Conditions
- This pact must take priority to other alliances.
- The two factions are aiming for a joint victory.
- Drones are not allowed to colonise the hive's main continent, or make use of the continent for crawler or city purposes.
- Hive is not allowed to colonise drones continent, or make use of drone terriority for crawler or city purposes.
- Both factions can get any tech from at any time from the other faction. (full tech sharing)
- Both factions can get any comm frequency at any time from the other faction. (full comm link sharing)
- One ambassdor from each faction is allowed into the other faction's forums to monitor affairs for duplicity. The ambassdor goes under a different username to avoid other factions finding out about our pact.
- Mounting attacks are determined independantly by each faction.
- Units in the other faction's territory must be withdrawn if requested.
- If a joint war is decided and forces one faction to break a pact, blood truce or treaty. The faction must be allowed honorable conduct. The faction has the option of warning the enemy of the change in alliance and can then wait 10 years before ending it. Although if the faction wishes it can begin its war straight away.

Seperate faction vote, and both factions must agree.
- The inital terms of the pact cannot be changed, unless there is a minimum of 70% agreement from both factions. Minimum of 4 members per faction voting in each poll.
- Raising land to connect the two continents requires seperate approval from both factions. The pre-land raising borders continue to hold in the agreement of terriority.
- Spoils of war are negotiated by the both factions.
- Further joint faction behaviour can be added when both factions agree to add it.

Joint faction behaviour.
- joint faction behaviour issues can determined by (hive percentage vote * 0.5) + (drone percentage vote * 0.5). Our factions get equal say in inter-faction issues. Minimum of 4 votes in each faction's poll.
- Either the foreman of the drones or the chairman of the hive can ask for a single faction single vote method after the results of the first poll if they feel strongly about a particular issue.
- Another faction attacking either drones or hive is considered an enemy for both. A war is does not have to be announced, but it is required that no help can be given to the enemy without consent of the pact faction.
- Enemies of one faction should be treated as enemies of the other faction. To declare war joint voting is required. This is may be an unoffical agreement for war and does not have to be announced to those not in the hive or drones.
- To end a joint war joint voting is required.
- If there is disagreement on war stance after the polls and the diplomatic interests of the two factions diverge. The faction still friendly to the enemy faction must not assist the enemy or hinder the pactmate. Any trading with the enemy must meet with the approval of the other faction.

Concessions
- If the drones have 75% or less land on their main continent compared to the hive. They can get hive military assistance and plan a joint invasion to get land from another faction. The land in the campagin belongs to the drones until the drones are equal in terrority to the inital hive continent. After which the splitting must be negotiated. The minimum amount of military the hive is required to use for assistance is proportional to half of the attack of the drone force amassed for the war.
- The hive is able to veto the joint dipolmatic stance towards the CyCon. Unless the CyCon are actively at war with the drones.
- If the drones have 75% or less land on their main continent compared to the hive. Three terraformers will be sent to the drone's continent to raise land until the land masses are equal. When the raise land option and transports become available the first terraformer will be sent. When the hive has finished planting bases on it's continent the other 2 terraformers will be sent.
- If the above occurs the drones will agree not to instigate any wars with the CyCon or attempt to agitate the CyCon without hive blessing. This is void if the CyCon initiate the attack against the drones.

Expected behaviour
- Both drones and hive should send reinforcements in the event of an invasion of the home continent.
- Research should be pursued together.
- The pact and terms of the pact should remain hidden as long as possible to reduce undue attention from the other factions.

Last edited by Kody on 15-07-2003 at 07:32

	15-07-2003 06:35									#109
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I would tend more towards an armed peace with guarded tech sharing, unless some sort of permapact can be secured. I think it would be unwise of us to presume the drone’s intentions. Until we have some idea of what their long-term goals are and we have some sort of assurance they will behave honorably we shouldn’t hasten to give them any kind of advantage.
Whatever happens we should take advantage of every opportunity that helps us to bargain from a position of strength. If the drones are willing to permapact I think the kody treaty is an excellent starting point. However we shouldn’t make concessions out of hand(or on blind faith), we shouldn’t needlessly encumber ourselves. We should be allowed to pursue foreign policy as we wish, independent of the drones; also I think that if the Drones starting continent is smaller than ours, then that is their problem, we shouldn’t give them any sort of terraforming priority over our own cities. At any rate they are quite capable of doing terraforming projects on their own(damned industry bonus )
Also, we should keep in mind that the drones may not pact with us. If this happens we should immediately begin aggressively pursuing offensive and defensive probe programs and shift our research efforts over to nonlinear mathematics.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I think that an inter-faction ambassador exchange would be a great idea(if its legal anyway).

	15-07-2003 06:42									#110
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quote: Originally posted by EZRhino Edit: I forgot to mention that I think that an inter-faction ambassador exchange would be a great idea(if its legal anyway).

That would be glorious! You could make ME the ambsassador to the drones

	15-07-2003 07:26									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 That would be glorious! You could make ME the ambsassador to the drones

Good Grief!!!!

--------------------------------
EZRhino,

I would tend to agree with you. However, until they make a decision I'm just outlining many of the possibilities. The options for a pact are the most complicated, and it seems quite possible they will be willing to pact. Although we don't know if they will permanently pact.

As for the terraforming if we're permanently pacted it's to show them our goodwill. Sometimes a kind gesture gets repaid even if you don't know it. Also the terraforming concession will help stop them from envying our lands and let us control their diplomatic stance to the CyCon. What we don't want to see is CyCon and drones beating it out, with the priates or university waiting to take over the survivor.

Kody

	15-07-2003 09:32									#112
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quote: - One ambassdor from each faction is allowed into the other faction's forums to monitor affairs for duplicity. The ambassdor goes under a different username to avoid other factions finding out about our pact.

Believe me, this is illegal, unless we publicly allow one person from each time join each other...

	15-07-2003 10:52									#113
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I only have enough time for one quick message, but consider, the Drones may already be preparing for war, they may only want the maps to ease the process, I think we need to hold back our maps for a while yet, and try to remain a bit of an enigma.

	15-07-2003 11:12									#114
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Email

Greetings Mongoose,

The chairman has authorised the release of a draft pact document, and the
offer of a permanent pact between the Hive and the Drones. This was
intended for if you decided on a pact. However, with such a long delay in
your deliberations of the first offer, it was decided you would need all
the time you could get considering this offer.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Draft Pact Document
See Pact Document above.
------------------------------------------------------------------

The document is not complete and while it has chairman approval to view
for now. The hive has yet to make a final decision on the issue. It is
expected that you will wish to negotiate over certain points or add your own.

If you agree to this pact, it would be useful if a secret inter-faction
forum to be opened to improve hive-drone relations. Furthermore, the
forum would be useful in discussing the terms of the pact.

The hive hopes we can pursue joint research goals and foreign affairs.
These can be planned co-operatively by our two factions and will be
handled seperately from the terms of the pact.

PS: hurry up

Regards,

Comarde Kody

Unoffical Science Minister and
Commissioner of Foreign Relations for the Hive.

Last edited by Kody on 15-07-2003 at 11:30

	15-07-2003 19:43									#115
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I'm sorry I haven't weighed in before the document was sent to the Drones. Anyway here's my two cents.

I don't like the mention of CyCon in the contract between us and the Drones. Foreign policy toward another faction can be included generally, but mentioning specific faction will only make the Drones suspect more. (It's a shame that we've already done it I only hope that this hasn't caused any harm as I was afraid.) I thought the Chairman only said propose the possibility of a perm pact with them and details would be determined later. We really should not have given them this clause prematurally.

I agree with EZRhino that we should not let Drones decide or influence our own foreign policy. I believe they have their own foreign policy also and I don't think they will let us have a finger on it. It is recommendable if we include in the clause regarding if somebody attacks one then it will become the enemy of the other and reinforcement and war should be planned coordinately. However, no further details is necessary such as both faction is mandated to send troops.

Same thing with teraforming and land exploring. We could agree to help when asked and we have forces to spend, and any new land through conqure and/or exploring should be negotiated with good faith. No point to say how many teraformers will be sent and such.

The langurages regarding joint voting in various places needs to be deleted. All interfaction matters needs to be agreed by both factions, inside each faction it will be decided according the factions' own policy, we don't have any right to how drone's deciding things and they don't have right to ours.

Another very important thing, full tech sharing should only occur in the case of permant pact. I for one do not agree that Drones will outtech us. I believe GooglieGod had said the same thing.

Another important thing, as Comrade Hoan suggested, we SHOULD NOT give them any portion of our maps prior to an agreement of permanent pact. They could be playing with us in the hope of getting as much as they could. In the case it is very clear that Drone's still haven't send any replies to us and we are already giving them lots and lots info as well as promises. This is bad. Obviously their strategy is working to gain benefit for them and we are not guarding ourselves very well.

Any discussion inside our private forum is good. However I suggest we don't give them any more info or clauses until they have replied back. Any talk with them should be on a high level. Especially when they haven't done anything (but a treaty proposal) toward our relationship. I'm not condemning their behavior, in fact I think their behavior is very prudent, and best to their benefit. We need to learn from them.

I know this criticism is pretty harsh and I know I'm part of what has been done. I want to say that Comrade Kody and others have worked really hard on this issue and this is really recommendable. I hope Comrades will take the useful part from my comment, but please forgive my not so subtle tone. I haven't tried to soften the tone because I believe it is more important to get what I wanted to say across. It is with the best intention.

	15-07-2003 19:50									#116
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Their strategy is fast losing them our goodwill. If they drag on much longer, I won't care for their excuses. With a pact mate that drags decisions for a week we'll be almost paralysed in a joint invasion. What you are actually seeing from me is the flurry before finally throwing in the towel with disgust.

Kody

	15-07-2003 19:55									#117
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The problems with my proposed pact is all my doubt has crept subtlely in. Consequently, some of the terms of the pact are too specific and assume that people will try and wiggle out of the pact in any way they can.

I will need to rewrite it and I agree with most of what has been raised.

Kody

	15-07-2003 20:14									#118
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Kody, I praise you in your hard work and the way you take my constructive (I hope ) criticism. I also recommend your honesty and honorable principle. I only raise the point that other people may not have the same principle as you and me so we need to be prepared.

	15-07-2003 20:27									#119
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My one question is how do you have a joint victory if you have opposing foreign policies to your pact mate. Without some kind of agreement to support each other or work together. It's unlikely we will be very effective in conquoring anyone. Even worse, conflicting foreign policy may result in the drones deciding that their other pact mate, who happens to be our enemy are more suited to being their permanent pact mate than us.

If you make the terms of the pact too loose, it be possible that it ends up as a permanent peace treaty. No game can finish like that and we will be forced to break the pact if we want to finish the game.

Kody

	15-07-2003 20:48									#120
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Well I think when the time comes each issue will have to be dealt with case by case. As for CyCon, we'll have to think about it before hand. For example, if we believe we'll go win or lose together with drones, that most probably mean that we will be at war with CyCon some point of time. We could try to stay friendly with them as long as possible. Maybe even pact with them. But we'll have to choose our ultimate friendly in the end I believe. What I was trying to say is that we shouldn't request Drones to commit their policy toward CyCon as a precondition of pacting with us.