15-07-2003 21:39									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Kody If they drag on much longer, I won't care for their excuses.

It's prolly RL intruding on RP

There's only been one post in their Forum (and not one of their "key players") in the last 48 hours

G.

	15-07-2003 21:56									#122
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Well let's hope they have something back to us before they send out their turn. Again I don't think their conduct is condemable. I think one needs to give it a though thought before one commits to do anything. And that's what we should learn from them too.

As for no post in their forum, I suspect they are not that inactive actually. They could be privately talking through other means such as PMs and/or messengers.

	15-07-2003 22:14									#123
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu They could be privately talking through other means such as PMs and/or messengers.

Hmmm - could be, but I doubt it. I think that it would be possible to infer from their posts if there had been prior discussion/agreement and I've seen no evidence of that.

I just think they are waiting for Buster to be engaged (he's only posted once, 2 days ago, from an internet cafe while on vacation) and for Mark to re-appear on the scene from wherever. I don't think Mongoose feels comfortable proceeding with just he and Shadowlord as the key decision makers, backed by 2 lesser players.

G.

	15-07-2003 22:28									#124
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This is understandable I personally feel. We should hold our horses a little.

	16-07-2003 05:07									#125
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I expect that if the pact with the drones pan out one of two things happen.

If the drones agree the CyCon get brought into the fold. Otherwise we will go to war against the CyCon. What that bit in the document means, the hive wants to choose when or if we go to war against CyCon.

Kody

	16-07-2003 09:51									#126
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May we live in exciting times.

	16-07-2003 10:18									#127
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We should consider putting units near our border for security, I do not want war, but I dont want to be surprised.

Also, why should we have any official treaties now? we can come back in 20 or so game years or so when things will be better for our side. Right now we can agree to "peace" and express intrest of doing more in the future.

And if they ask "why", we can always say that we had a vote...

	16-07-2003 10:20									#128
	Full PM-box? Change here!

It got to do with the tech trading.

We want to start some of the tech jumping now rather than 20 years down the track. Also we might not have the advantage in 20 years, at the moment they think we're more powerful than we actually are. Finally when they start outstripping us in techs it'll be unlikely the want to do joint tech with us.

Kody

	16-07-2003 10:22									#129
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That means we have to do our part to make sure we too can churn out tech.

	16-07-2003 10:22									#130
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Yeah but in 20 years they'll have an advantage that we won't be able to catch up for at least another 10 or 20 years. I think. At least tech wise.

Kody

	16-07-2003 10:25									#131
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We can do our part Hive be willing, and work and research we shall 'till our spleen implode.

	16-07-2003 12:03									#132
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This discussion, though it has shown itself to be fruitful, does not in any way officially ratify any treaty or alliance with the Drones. Therefore I would request that Comrade Kody would post an officially poll asking the PAC to ratify the draft treaty with the Drones. Upon-which the treaty will be sent to the CCC for further discussion.

Until such a time as this has been done, no official government support exists for an alliance with the Drones.

Though this will simply be a matter of formalities since many have already stated their support for the plan, a number of Hive members have been absent, and we cannot make any final decisions until it has been formally approved.

-Chairman Voltaire

P.S.
Though I have been recently absent in the forums, be assured that I keep a close eye on the happenings here; and as many of you know, I can most often be reached over MSN (message me even if my status is set to away, most often I'm there).

	16-07-2003 12:48									#133
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I assumed we wanted to repoll on if we want to pact before we ratify the draft pact agreement. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that the issue was already decided.

quote: The document is not complete and while it has chairman approval to view for now. The hive has yet to make a final decision on the issue. It is expected that you will wish to negotiate over certain points or add your own.

This was the disclaimer in the email I sent the drones.

The first pact polls went through and we got clear majority to go for some kind of a pact, and a good majority for a permanent pact if we could get it. However, many people voiced concerns and I think another poll on whether we still want to pact will be needed now that several days have past.

I also think most people want to wait for the response from the drones before they decide whether they wish to pact or not. I can add the polls now, but if the drones wait for buster to come back (another 4 days). The poll "Poll: Tech Research" is an example of what happens when the poll is offered before people are ready.

However, it will be good to evaulate the opinions of people while we wait. I'll do some fine tuning to the draft pact document first. Then I'll draw up the two polls on the pact and the draft pact document. We may have to hold those two polls again depending on the Drone's response.

Anyway sorry again. There seems that there was a communication error on my part.

Kody

	16-07-2003 16:31									#134
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Future Email

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mongoose,

The hive has updated their proposed pact document. This is much closer to what we hope to finally agree to. If you intend to pact please send any disagreement you have with any of the details or additional points you wish to add.
________________________________
Insert document here.
________________________________

Kody
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mongoose,

The hive has finished deliberating the proposed pact document. The following document has PAC (People's Advisory Council) approval and we are willing to agree to the current terms proposed in the document.

We understand that you may wish to adjust the pact first. If you intend to pact please send any disagreement you have with any of the details or additional points you wish to add.
________________________________
Draft Pact Document Version 2

1.0 Conditions
1.1 - This is intended to be a permanent pact and must take priority to other alliances. The two factions are aiming for a joint victory.
1.2 - Sovereignty of each faction’s starting continent. Bases or crawlers cannot use the other faction’s continent.
1.3 - Shared tech. Both factions can get any tech from the other at any time they choose.
1.4 - Shared Comm links. Both factions can get any comm frequency at any time they choose.
1.5 - Shared world maps.
1.6 - An ambassador from each faction is allowed into the other faction’s forum. This will help each faction understand the other’s concerns and arguments. The ambassador goes under a different name to keep the pact secret initially.
1.7 - Units in the other faction’s territory must be withdrawn if requested.
1.8 - Factions are allowed differing foreign policy. However, each faction’s foreign policy should be transparent to the other faction.
1.9 - When trading of units, techs, comm frequencies and other useful information with a faction that is an enemy of either Drones or the Hive, the other faction must agree to the exchange.

2.0 Issues that can be addressed during course of the pact
2.1 - The initial terms of the pact can be amended by an agreement from both factions.
2.2 - Connecting the two starting continents requires approval from both factions. Pre land raising borders will continue to hold in the agreement of territorial rights.
2.3 - Spoils of war should be determined beforehand where possible.
2.4 - Important issues not covered by the pact or inadequately covered are addressed by a 1 faction 1 vote system. If the two decisions differ the factions will agree to disagree.
2.5 - Issues of lesser importance can determined by (hive percentage vote * 0.5) + (drone percentage vote * 0.5). Either the hive chairman or drone foreman can decide at any time whether an issue is important.

3.0 Expected Behaviour
3.1 - Expected behaviour is not a rule, just a recommendation.
3.2 - Both drones and hive should send reinforcements in the event of an invasion of the home continent.
3.3 - Research should be pursued together.
3.4 - The pact and terms of the pact should remain hidden as long as possible to reduce undue attention from the other factions.
3.5 - The hive and drones should attempt to assist each other in war.
3.6 - The hive and drones should have a unified front in their diplomatic dealing with other factions.
________________________________

Kody
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Two emails depending on what the PAC decides. Any comments or adjustments to the wording?

Kody

Last edited by Kody on 17-07-2003 at 11:12

	16-07-2003 19:19									#135
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The second email sounds ok to me. My understanding is that it will be send after the final approval of the pact proposal, right? For the first email, I suppose you could indicate that there are changes on the way but do not attach a document.

	17-07-2003 05:54									#136
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Depends on whether we still want to fiddle with the document some more.

The first document was woefully inadequte. Also it had emphasis on the wrong things. I want to sent them the updated document if it will be allowed.

Kody

	17-07-2003 07:53									#137
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Was viewing Civgaming.net and came across a Mark who wrote the following. Is this the Mark as the Drones?

quote: As for my all-time favourite single ploy, it has to be about six months ago, in a game called 'The Hare' over at Poly. Basically, I was being out-teched, out-grown and out-fought by Googlie - the game was slipping fast. The third human player in that game, XWaste, was well built enough, but way off the pair of us militarily. I was in a fairly stable pact with Googlie, treatied with XWaste - XWaste was pacted with Googlie. The year was about 2220, and we had all just gotten Fusion. And so, the masterplan was born I built up a few forces on XWaste's border - mainly to see if he had infiltrated (or was paying attention). He clearly hadn't, as I got no response, so I invaded that turn, taking three bases. Googlie then rushed to support XWaste - he gave him half of his choppers and drop troops, and XWaste took the three bases back. Crucially, Googlie didn't rebuild his military. I turned on him. I lobbed 1 PB at the Cloudbase - a second a turn later at his HQ, and then invaded the rest of his bases on my continent, taking a few of XWaste's cities, and otherwise suppressing them anyway I could. Googlie obviously had no way to reach me, and simply built what he could of an airforce. XWaste was later eradicated, and Googlie, without his main bases, could do nothing but resign. I don't know whether he's forgiven me for that yet

	17-07-2003 07:56									#138
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Ahh, that is the same Mark. However notice that Mark was at war. Deception of an enemy that knows your a enemy is perfectly acceptable in my books. My main issue is asking someone to trust us and then turning on them.

Kody

	17-07-2003 10:42									#139
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Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr - yes, that is he, the miserable swine

GGLIE

	17-07-2003 11:14									#140
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Email

Mongoose,

The hive has finished deliberating the proposed pact document. The following document has PAC (People's Advisory Council) approval and we are willing to agree to the current terms proposed in the document.

We understand that you may wish to adjust the pact first. If you intend to pact please send any disagreement you have with any of the details or additional points you wish to add.
________________________________
Draft Pact Document Version 2

1.0 Conditions
1.1 - This is intended to be a permanent pact and must take priority to other alliances. The two factions are aiming for a joint victory.
1.2 - Sovereignty of each faction’s starting continent. Bases or crawlers cannot use the other faction’s continent.
1.3 - Shared tech. Both factions can get any tech from the other at any time they choose.
1.4 - Shared Comm links. Both factions can get any comm frequency at any time they choose.
1.5 - Shared world maps.
1.6 - An ambassador from each faction is allowed into the other faction’s forum. This will help each faction understand the other’s concerns and arguments. The ambassador goes under a different name to keep the pact secret initially.
1.7 - Units in the other faction’s territory must be withdrawn if requested.
1.8 - Factions are allowed differing foreign policy. However, each faction’s foreign policy should be transparent to the other faction.
1.9 - When trading of units, techs, comm frequencies and other useful information with a faction that is an enemy of either Drones or the Hive, the other faction must agree to the exchange.

2.0 Issues that can be addressed during course of the pact
2.1 - The initial terms of the pact can be amended by an agreement from both factions.
2.2 - Connecting the two starting continents requires approval from both factions. Pre land raising borders will continue to hold in the agreement of territorial rights.
2.3 - Spoils of war should be determined beforehand where possible.
2.4 - Important issues not covered by the pact or inadequately covered are addressed by a 1 faction 1 vote system. If the two decisions differ the factions will agree to disagree.
2.5 - Issues of lesser importance can determined by (hive percentage vote * 0.5) + (drone percentage vote * 0.5). Either the hive chairman or drone foreman can decide at any time whether an issue is important.

3.0 Expected Behaviour
3.1 - Expected behaviour is not a rule, just a recommendation.
3.2 - Both drones and hive should send reinforcements in the event of an invasion of the home continent.
3.3 - Research should be pursued together.
3.4 - The pact and terms of the pact should remain hidden as long as possible to reduce undue attention from the other factions.
3.5 - The hive and drones should attempt to assist each other in war.
3.6 - The hive and drones should have a unified front in their diplomatic dealing with other factions.
________________________________

Kody

	17-07-2003 11:25									#141
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Important

We have currently exhausted everything we can possibly do until the Buster comes back on the 20th and the drones are able to make a decision.

We have already gone through all the issues at least 2 times. Please no more comments or talking about the drones until the drones send back a decision. Fretting doesn't achieve anything except to make the hive more nervous.

PS: write pravda articles instead

Kody

	17-07-2003 19:13									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Kody Ahh, that is the same Mark. However notice that Mark was at war. Deception of an enemy that knows your a enemy is perfectly acceptable in my books. My main issue is asking someone to trust us and then turning on them. Kody

Well my impression from reading the paragraph is that he was pacted with Googlie and backstabbed him. Sounds like he feels really good about it too.

	17-07-2003 19:19									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Kody Email Mongoose, The hive has finished deliberating the proposed pact document. The following document has PAC (People's Advisory Council) approval and we are willing to agree to the current terms proposed in the document. We understand that you may wish to adjust the pact first. If you intend to pact please send any disagreement you have with any of the details or additional points you wish to add. ________________________________ Draft Pact Document Version 2 1.0 Conditions 1.1 - This is intended to be a permanent pact and must take priority to other alliances. The two factions are aiming for a joint victory. 1.2 - Sovereignty of each faction’s starting continent. Bases or crawlers cannot use the other faction’s continent. 1.3 - Shared tech. Both factions can get any tech from the other at any time they choose. 1.4 - Shared Comm links. Both factions can get any comm frequency at any time they choose. 1.5 - Shared world maps. 1.6 - An ambassador from each faction is allowed into the other faction’s forum. This will help each faction understand the other’s concerns and arguments. The ambassador goes under a different name to keep the pact secret initially. 1.7 - Units in the other faction’s territory must be withdrawn if requested. 1.8 - Factions are allowed differing foreign policy. However, each faction’s foreign policy should be transparent to the other faction. 1.9 - When trading of units, techs, comm frequencies and other useful information with a faction that is an enemy of either Drones or the Hive, the other faction must agree to the exchange. 2.0 Issues that can be addressed during course of the pact 2.1 - The initial terms of the pact can be amended by an agreement from both factions. 2.2 - Connecting the two starting continents requires approval from both factions. Pre land raising borders will continue to hold in the agreement of territorial rights. 2.3 - Spoils of war should be determined beforehand where possible. 2.4 - Important issues not covered by the pact or inadequately covered are addressed by a 1 faction 1 vote system. If the two decisions differ the factions will agree to disagree. 2.5 - Issues of lesser importance can determined by (hive percentage vote * 0.5) + (drone percentage vote * 0.5). Either the hive chairman or drone foreman can decide at any time whether an issue is important. 3.0 Expected Behaviour 3.1 - Expected behaviour is not a rule, just a recommendation. 3.2 - Both drones and hive should send reinforcements in the event of an invasion of the home continent. 3.3 - Research should be pursued together. 3.4 - The pact and terms of the pact should remain hidden as long as possible to reduce undue attention from the other factions. 3.5 - The hive and drones should attempt to assist each other in war. 3.6 - The hive and drones should have a unified front in their diplomatic dealing with other factions. ________________________________ Kody

Comrade Kody, I understand you are pre-posting the email before you send it out as we agreed upon, right? I have checked the PAC poll and it seems that nobody has voted that this document is ready to be sent. It is faulse at this stage to claim that this document is approved by the PAC. Also I am not aware of a CCC approval of this draft. Therefore in name of the CCC I ask that you hold this email until the document gets approval from the PAC and CCC.

	18-07-2003 08:06									#144
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Yeah I've been preposting, but I only waited a few hours. So unfortunately this is too late. If you see a bold "Email" at the tope of a post, then it's already sent.

I think you're forgetting that if I didn't send the updated document the drones would be making decisions based on the first version.

The document isn't final of course. Nobody has voted to make it our final stance. However, there was a majority that said they agreed to update the document. Rokossovky said after I edited that line which could be misinterrupted it would agree to send the update. So that's a 4 to 1 vote for updating the drones.

Also I assumed that the only editing that you wanted was changing of caluse 2.1. I changed that to what you wanted so I didn't think you would have a problem with the document.

When I noticed the majority, I asked for guidance from the chairman and he said I would be allowed to send the update.

Kody

Last edited by Kody on 18-07-2003 at 08:21

	18-07-2003 08:07									#145
	Remove this text

Email
Kody,

Early response to your Pact proposal is favorable.

I am at a loss as to how to proceed with the offer you have in the box. You
have said that you didn't want a tech now...I think. Yet, you have put
Infonets in with the treaty.

Shall I accept, understanding that we owe you Industrial Economics? Or,
should I defer accepting until next turn, so that we might hammer out the
details of a jint research strategy if the Pact is ratified?

We can accelerate our next discovery to the Drone 2125 turn by slight
modification to energy allocation.

Question: Is it better to bend both of our research efforts to Automation,
or split them in pursuit of Automation and (Flex or Integrity). If the
former, You should pass us both Physics and Infonets in the next couple of
turns, then we can pass back PlanNets and Ind Econ in our 2125 (to be
accepted at the beginning of your 2126. If your discovery of PlanNets is
not any sooner than that, you will be able to redirect immediately to IA,
no? If the latter case, then we should not accept infonets now, nor for
some time to come. Rather, we should redirect immediately to Social Psych
or Mobility. (our only options at present).

I think I'm running out of time to hold the turn. I'll probably end up
accepting the offer as presented and allowing you to accept in your turn if
that's the way we want to go. If we choose otherwise, you can remove
Infonets form the box in your turn.

Mongoose

	18-07-2003 08:07									#146
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Email
Well Apolyton is still down so I can't contact my superiors on how to
proceed.

I think it's best to go for industrial automation. Both our factions have
much to gain from running wealth and making crawlers. The tech costs will
be slightly higher for you in the long run, but the early boon to your
economy and your industry may make up for it. Also pursuing this path
means we have 5 turns of breathing space before we need to finalise our
decisions. So keep working on information networks.

I do not have authorisation to give you any techs until after a research
strategy has been hammered out and approved. My faction has decide to hold
off the decision until you made a response to our main offer of a pact.
I'm certain in our next turn we will be able to do this. I changed the
treaty to a pact, and removed information networks as I'm uncertain how
to proceed with tech trading yet.

Kody

	18-07-2003 08:09									#147
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HongHu,

This is something I haven't sent yet. The chairman is the one asking for the adjustment to the pact document.

The other thing I've mentioned in the email will get that scout off our land and we won't have to spend so many units guarding against it.

Kody

Unsent Email
Mongoose,

I have figured out a way that you can obtain your scout back faster and get to the task of exploring the seas south of your lands. On your next turn accept pact. Then end pact. This will send the scout back to your base for loading into your transport. Then offer the hive a pact again for next turn.

There is also a slight amendment to the treaty document has been requested, as the point may have been unclear.
“1.1 - This is intended to be a permanent pact and must take priority to other alliances. The two factions are aiming for a joint victory. Any permanent pacts with another faction require both factions to approve. Non-permanent pacts do not require joint approval.”

Kody

	18-07-2003 08:33									#148
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Two more days, until buster gets back and we might get a definite reply.

Lets keep the discussion capped, as Mongoose hasn't made any commitments in what he said. So nothing really has changed.

Kody

	18-07-2003 10:28									#149
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Email
Mongoose,

I have figured out a way that you can obtain your scout back faster and
get to the task of exploring the seas south of your lands. On your next
turn you can accept pact. Start your turn, then end pact. This will send
the scout back to your base for loading into your transport. Then offer
the hive a pact again for next turn. I'm not sure whether this is legal or
not, but it does mean you don't have to wait an extra 3 turns for the
scout to make it back to the transport.

There is also a slight amendment to the treaty document has been
requested, as the point may have been unclear.
"1.1 - This is intended to be a permanent pact and must take priority to
other alliances. The two factions are aiming for a joint victory. Any
permanent pacts with another faction require both factions to approve.
Non-permanent pacts do not require joint approval."

Kody

	18-07-2003 17:52									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Kody I'm not sure whether this is legal or not

While not generally regarded as a cheat in the majority of PBEMs, in most RP-style ones it is (where does the instant teleporting come from in pre-psigate times?).

I would rule it an "inappropriate procedure" in this case

G.