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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:29
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Hrmm I really need to find something to keep me busy. Atm the moment all I can think of is how satisfying it would be to send them the following email when they next contact me.
quote:
Fake Email
Mongoose,
It's nice to hear that the Drones have made their decisions. Unfortunately the Hive is undergoing some internal management restructuring. Please be patient until this is resolved.
Kody
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Either that or announce my retirement and then tell the drones that Tassadar is now handling all the negotiations.
Kody
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Rokossovky
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Marshal of the Revolutionary Army of the Socialist People of the Human Hive
May 2003
time: 22:29
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Trade the tech (singular), I agree. It would also be a sign of goodwill. As long as they are not strategically important then there is not that much of a problem. It WOULD be nice to be in a pact, but, *shrugs*. (IE don't trade applied yet)
- Rokossovky
Last edited by Rokossovky on 26-07-2003 at 02:33
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:29
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Email
Cody,
We do not yet have the votes for a permanent pact with Hive. That could
change at any minute; the vote difference between a less permanent
arrangement and the pact you have proposed is one vote, at current.
There are at least four votes not yet cast and a couple of the ones cast
might yet be changed.
However, as I say, there is not sufficient support to enter into a
permanent pact at this time.
We counterpropose a less permanent arrangement with the potential to
evolve into a permanent one.
The Foreman's Proposal, meant as a working document:
Hive - Drones Pact agreement
Preface: This document provides the overal framework for a Hive - Drones
pact. While it does not extend to an agreement to fully work together for
a shared victory and while towards the end of the game a situation where
a final winner among the two involved parties need to be found could
result, it is created on the assumption that both involved parties are in
the near and mid term best served by peaceful and cooperative
co-existence and by helping ensure the prosperity of both involved
factions.
1.0 Conditions
1.a - This pact is intended to further the chances of victory for both
involved factions by creating trade income and an environment where
resources are not wasted guarding against each other and where trades of
information or technology can occur without needing to fear this
information/technology will shortly after be used against oneself.
1.b - Sovereignty of each factions starting continent. Bases or crawlers
cannot use the other factions continent. Unpopped pods on the others
continent or in the water on the coastal line or inside a bases radius
should be left alone by the other faction.
1.c - Trades will occur when agreed upon by both factions
1.d - Units in the other factions territory must be withdrawn if
requested.
1.e - Factions are allowed differing foreign policy. However, each
factions foreign policy should be transparent to the other faction.
1.f - When trading of units, techs, comm frequencies and other useful
information with a faction that is an enemy of either Drones or the Hive,
the other faction must agree to the exchange. An enemy is defined as a
faction where the current diplomatic state is that of war.
1.g - The pact will run for minimum 50 turns from the time unless both
parties agree to end it beforehand.
1.h - Notice of termination must be given minimum 10 turns in advance.
1.i - Each faction is free to pursue its own goal of victory including
making other alliances.
1.j - The Hive will not found coastal bases that contend for sea
resources with existing Drone coastal bases and Drones will not make
coastal bases that contend with existing Hive Bases for coastal
resources.
1.k - SPs close to completion by one faction should not be rush built by
the other faction. Close to completion means expected to complete in
three turns or less with current production.
1.l - Sea bases should not be founded closer than 5 squares from the
coast of the other factions continent.
2.0 Issues that can be addressed during course of the pact
2.a - The initial terms of the pact can be amended by an agreement from
both factions.
2.b - Connecting the two starting continents requires approval from both
factions. Pre land raising borders will continue to hold in the agreement
of territorial rights.
2.c - Important issues not covered by the pact or inadequately covered
are addressed by a 1 faction 1 vote system. If the two decisions differ
the factions will agree to disagree.
2.d - Issues of lesser importance can determined by (hive percentage vote
* 0.5) + (drone percentage vote * 0.5). Either the hive chairman or drone
foreman can decide at any time whether an issue is important.
3.0 Expected Behaviour
3.a - Expected behaviour is not a rule, just a recommendation.
3.b - Both drones and hive should send reinforcements in the event of an
invasion of the home continent.
3.c - Research plans should be coordinated.
3.d - The pact and terms of the pact should remain hidden as long as
possible to reduce undue attention from the other factions. In case of
breach of rules by one party the other party is however free publish the
contract as well the details of the breach.
3.e - The hive and drones should attempt to assist each other in war.
3.f - The hive and drones should be open about their relations with and
plans for other factions.
3.g - Transparency should be kept at a high level to avoid mutual
suspicion building up. Particularly if large scale millitary preparations
are occuring.
3.h - Underhanding dealings or circumventing maneuvers, though maybe not
in direct violation of a particular paragraph but clearly violating its
spirit should be avoided. Examples of such would be but are not limited
to:
* Feeding information, technology or units to a third party well
knowing it will then by the third party be forwarded to an enemy or
well knowing the third party is preparing millitary action towards
the pact-brother.
* Attemts of deception - such as pretending that diplomatic relations
with a third faction are other than what they actually are.
* Withholding knowledge of imminent millitary action towards the the
pact brother by a third party.
* Taking steps to diplomatically isolate the pact brother.
3.i - In the case one factions enters an agreement with a third faction
that includes shared victory this should be clearly told to the other
faction.
We can get our next discovery in 2125 regardless of Pact commerce or
radical allocation of energy. Indeed, we need not unbalance at all to
achieve that date, we need merely to move two workers to undeveloped
energy special tiles for a couple of turns. (Living Standard and Anvil of
Man...Buster? )
The big question is whether you will accept a lesser pact and whether you
still wish to work cooperatively toward Industrial Automation with that
lesser pact in place. Against the possibility that you will and that you
do, we will accept the pact as offered in the box this turn. We will
move those workers as described above. If we are in agreement, accept
the Pact, then send Physics accepted or put Physics in and accept. If
you do the second, we will not gain commerce (small as it is) in 2123.
If you do the first, we will. (Bold type is for Buster's benefit.  )
Regards,
Mongoose
Last edited by Kody on 26-07-2003 at 07:29
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:29
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Email
I have noticed you removed the full tech sharing and the comm link
sharing in the pact document.
Without the tech sharing does this mean that you wish to perform only tech
for tech trades? If that is the case surely you realise the current agreed
upon tech exchange will be 3 techs from the hive for 2 of yours.
As this directly affects the techs we give you this turn, I wish to get
this sorted out before we proceed. The other issues can be sorted out
later.
Kody
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:29
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Things to remember. (note to self)
* The movement of drone scout better at 5,21 as fungus is present on the way to 5,23
* Tech trading disparity issues
* Haon bit of insight into why drones won't commit
* Industrial Economics for extra trade
* Drone-Hive forum (Googlie suggested)
Kody
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:29
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Email
Cody,
I do not know if the commlink sharing was deleted intentionally, or merely
omitted during furing drafting. To my mind, it'a a minor issue, either way.
I am almost certain that the language concerning tech trades was substituted
deliberately for the tech sharing agreement in your proposal.
In this case, we will be giving Industrial Base, Industrial Economics and
Planetary Networks (3) you will be giving Physics, InfoNets and Industrial
Auto (3). We must wait a turn before sending Industrial Base, as you have
said that including it before you re-direct will preclude the option of
Industrial Automation. My last letter did not disinclude Base from the
arrangement. It only dealt with the turn(s) up to the discovery of
Automation.
Regards,
Mongoose
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Rokossovky
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Marshal of the Revolutionary Army of the Socialist People of the Human Hive
May 2003
time: 22:29
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I am happy with that arrangement.
- Rokossovky
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:29
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Email
The members that were active agreed to the pact that you proposed. From
all the discussion that has occurred in the last 17 days while we waited
for your reply, the active members were confident that the majority would
accept the adjusted pact document in the hope of better relations in the
future.
However, we are disappointed that all cooperative clauses were removed
from the document. In effect you have made a simple peace treaty.
Googlie suggested that Buster could make a interfaction forum. If it would
be possible for buster to arrange, I feel a hive-drone forum would help
such trust to develop.
I understand that you may wish to wait until you have met with all of the
other factions. While the current agreed pact will remain. We will remind
you that when the hive meets over factions the offer of joint-victory may
be withdrawn in favour of another faction.
Now for more mundane issues.
Applied is on the table. I had hoped last turn you would have added IE so
that the Hive could have benifited from the commerce. Can you please
give us IE in your next turn. It was an oversight as I did not want to
trouble you with further emails while you were making your decision.
We will also need to re-evaulate the research goals in a few turns to
determine whether we wish to pursue further tech leapfrogging.
The movement of your scout may be faster to 5,21 as fungus blocks the way
to 5,23 according to our maps. It's your decision what you wish to do.
The Hive offer of a join-victory pact still stands, and it is hopped that
such things as shared research and shared comm links can agreed upon.
PS: Please contact us if you wish to arrange any further tech research
after IA
Kody
Last edited by Kody on 26-07-2003 at 06:37
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:29
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Email
Mongoose,
Might I ask where this is going?
Kody
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Mongoose wrote:
> Googlie,
>
> Assuming that Hive/Drone Pact negotiations bear fruit...
>
> Is it OK if we arrange to mind control a few Hive units, maybe 1-1-1 scout
patrols, and have Hive pre designate such actions as OK, allowing us to select
the 'warning' dialogue response?
>
> Mongoose
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Haon
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Japan, but I just live here.
Oct 2001
time: 05:29
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Is it just me, or does that treaty give no guarantee of a map exchange? I really dont feal comfortable if they are hiding there georaphy from us, I would suggest we try to fit in a map exchange, true we would open ourselves to security issues, but I really would feel more comfortable knowing where they might be able to quickly invade us from. (I am not 100% familier with our current geographic understanding, but we need to know just how much land they really have)
Also, I am worried about the articles on sea bases, I am afriad the Pirates may be near by and we may need sea territory to be in a good position over the Pirates, and that a good strong navy will be needed eventually to deal with them, if not for war, then to keep our ocean terrotiory safe.
Just my 2 cents
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:29
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Email
Mongoose,
"1.j - The Hive will not found coastal bases that contend for sea
resources with existing Drone coastal bases and Drones will not make
coastal bases that contend with existing Hive Bases for coastal
resources."
This is a bit difficult to read, and open to misinterpretation. How about.
"1.j - Each faction has a right to the land on their on continent. Sea
squares that can be accessed by bases of both factions will be given to
the first base that has the square inside city limits."
We'll keep track of which sea squares belong to who. There may be the case
where a base site has a small overlap. This will be fine as long as the
sea squares are not used by the later founded bases.
Also according to your wording the Hive can claim your land resources with
a coastal base. While you cannot claim our land resources with your
coastal base. I'm sure you didn't intend this.
Kody
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:29
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I still feel that it's too early to ask for a map exchange. That may sound like we are planning an invasion.
The sea base articles are fine as far as I see. It's simply to avoid staging posts for invasion. We can plant sea bases around our land just fine.
Kody
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Rokossovky
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Marshal of the Revolutionary Army of the Socialist People of the Human Hive
May 2003
time: 22:29
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quote:
With regards to the maps, I guess that we just need to try and get one eventually, I honestly believe that in the future, that war will be inevitable, and that I would feel a lot better if we had maps and time to prepare. |
I have to agree with this. War IS inevitable.
quote:
Keep in mind that if we do exchange maos that we will be vulnerable to. |
We cannot win holding only a shield...
- Rokossovky
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Haon
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Japan, but I just live here.
Oct 2001
time: 05:29
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I guess so, but what happens when we want to do a surprise attack, or if we are in a perfect position to ambush, or if we find ourselves in a situation where we are being exploited and war becomes necessary? If we can get the other factions to support us, or if we keep the war "secret" thats fine, but I doubt we can do that, if we commit to 50 years, and then attack earlier, and then the Drones spread bad words about us to the other factions that they have contact with.
Though the Drones will bad mouth us if we attack them anyway, so I guess it does not really matter, but I dont want to feel that we have to "commit" to peace.
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:29
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They specifically put in a line in the pact document that states that when someone breaks the pact the other faction will publish the pact and how it was broken. It sounds like the drones know there are a few blood thirsty war mongers in the Hive, if they don't believe the whole faction is that way.
Kody
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:29
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Email
Kody,
Your rewording for 1.j is fine with us.
The way that territory is defined by the game make any consideration of "
...Also according to your wording the Hive can claim your land resources
with
a coastal base. While you cannot claim our land resources with your
coastal base." moot. Unless our land masses should become connected, a
coastal base on one side of the channel (or in later situations, on one side
of any body of water) will not be able to claim or to work land tiles on the
other side. If there is or comes to be a land connection, the game will
determine the borders and the workability of any potentially disputed
square, no matter how we might agree otherwise. The only recourse in that
circumstance would be to negotiate cross crawling of FOPs from those
squares.
There is no issue here, I think, neither is there likely to be one where
this language might apply.
On other matters, Buster has created an Embassy forum for Hivers at CGN. So
far, only you have access to it. (non-drone access. I should say) Merely
inform Buster of any other persons desiring access and the CGN username of
that person so that he can enable them to view and to post there. His
instructions in that forum are likely more clear than this effort of mine to
relate them.
We will certainly provide IE next turn. We were awaiting agreement on the
joint research program for IA before sending it.
If you like, I am authorized to offer an exchange of maps.
Regards,
Mongoose
PS. You note that I have resumed spelling your name correctly...I must have
been having extended brain cramping earlier in the week. Getting old is a
*****. 
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:29
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Updated
Hive - Drones Pact agreement
Preface: This document provides the overal framework for a Hive - Drones
pact. While it does not extend to an agreement to fully work together for
a shared victory and while towards the end of the game a situation where
a final winner among the two involved parties need to be found could
result, it is created on the assumption that both involved parties are in
the near and mid term best served by peaceful and cooperative
co-existence and by helping ensure the prosperity of both involved
factions.
1.0 Conditions
1.a - This pact is intended to further the chances of victory for both
involved factions by creating trade income and an environment where
resources are not wasted guarding against each other and where trades of
information or technology can occur without needing to fear this
information/technology will shortly after be used against oneself.
1.b - Sovereignty of each factions starting continent. Bases or crawlers
cannot use the other factions continent. Unpopped pods on the others
continent or in the water on the coastal line or inside a bases radius
should be left alone by the other faction.
1.c - Trades will occur when agreed upon by both factions
1.d - Units in the other factions territory must be withdrawn if
requested.
1.e - Factions are allowed differing foreign policy. However, each
factions foreign policy should be transparent to the other faction.
1.f - When trading of units, techs, comm frequencies and other useful
information with a faction that is an enemy of either Drones or the Hive,
the other faction must agree to the exchange. An enemy is defined as a
faction where the current diplomatic state is that of war.
1.g - The pact will run for minimum 50 turns from the time unless both
parties agree to end it beforehand.
1.h - Notice of termination must be given minimum 10 turns in advance.
1.i - Each faction is free to pursue its own goal of victory including
making other alliances.
1.j - Each faction has a right to the land on their on continent. Sea
squares that can be accessed by bases of both factions will be given to
the first base that has the square inside city limits.
1.k - SPs close to completion by one faction should not be rush built by
the other faction. Close to completion means expected to complete in
three turns or less with current production.
1.l - Sea bases should not be founded closer than 5 squares from the
coast of the other factions continent.
2.0 Issues that can be addressed during course of the pact
2.a - The initial terms of the pact can be amended by an agreement from
both factions.
2.b - Connecting the two starting continents requires approval from both
factions. Pre land raising borders will continue to hold in the agreement
of territorial rights.
2.c - Important issues not covered by the pact or inadequately covered
are addressed by a 1 faction 1 vote system. If the two decisions differ
the factions will agree to disagree.
2.d - Issues of lesser importance can determined by (hive percentage vote
* 0.5) + (drone percentage vote * 0.5). Either the hive chairman or drone
foreman can decide at any time whether an issue is important.
3.0 Expected Behaviour
3.a - Expected behaviour is not a rule, just a recommendation.
3.b - Both drones and hive should send reinforcements in the event of an
invasion of the home continent.
3.c - Research plans should be coordinated.
3.d - The pact and terms of the pact should remain hidden as long as
possible to reduce undue attention from the other factions. In case of
breach of rules by one party the other party is however free publish the
contract as well the details of the breach.
3.e - The hive and drones should attempt to assist each other in war.
3.f - The hive and drones should be open about their relations with and
plans for other factions.
3.g - Transparency should be kept at a high level to avoid mutual
suspicion building up. Particularly if large scale millitary preparations
are occuring.
3.h - Underhanding dealings or circumventing maneuvers, though maybe not
in direct violation of a particular paragraph but clearly violating its
spirit should be avoided. Examples of such would be but are not limited
to:
* Feeding information, technology or units to a third party well
knowing it will then by the third party be forwarded to an enemy or
well knowing the third party is preparing millitary action towards
the pact-brother.
* Attemts of deception - such as pretending that diplomatic relations
with a third faction are other than what they actually are.
* Withholding knowledge of imminent millitary action towards the the
pact brother by a third party.
* Taking steps to diplomatically isolate the pact brother.
3.i - In the case one factions enters an agreement with a third faction
that includes shared victory this should be clearly told to the other
faction.
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:29
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There's a problem with the civgaming site.
___________________________________
bash-2.05$ traceroute www.civgaming.net
traceroute: unknown host www.civgaming.net
___________________________________
It looks like a dns problem.
I think it the dns is cached on my system to be 217.157.9.100 so I did a traceroute
___________________________________
bash-2.05$ traceroute 217.157.9.100
traceroute to 217.157.9.100 (217.157.9.100), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
1 216.127.80.1 (216.127.80.1) 0.767 ms 0.353 ms 0.291 ms
2 twhou-ni-1.ev1.net (207.218.245.9) 0.517 ms 0.380 ms 0.368 ms
3 289.ge-4-2-0.mpr2.iah1.us.mfnx.net (216.200.251.27) 0.980 ms 0.979 ms 1.013 ms
4 so-0-0-0.mpr1.iah1.us.above.net (64.125.31.61) 0.794 ms 0.899 ms 0.719 ms
5 pos2-0.er1.atl4.us.above.net (64.125.31.26) 13.431 ms 13.375 ms 13.543 ms
6 so-4-0-0.cr1.lga2.us.mfnx.net (208.184.232.166) 28.750 ms 28.707 ms 28.673 ms
7 so-0-0-0.cr1.lga1.us.mfnx.net (208.185.0.245) 28.827 ms 28.742 ms 28.745 ms
8 pos0-0.pr1.lga1.us.above.net (208.185.0.238) 29.073 ms 28.949 ms 29.180 ms
9 nyk-i1-pos3-0.telia.net (213.248.82.157) 29.043 ms 28.910 ms 28.963 ms
10 nyk-bb1-pos1-2-0.telia.net (213.248.82.13) 38.260 ms 38.254 ms 38.297 ms
11 kbn-bb1-pos2-1-0.telia.net (213.248.64.21) 120.179 ms 120.310 ms 120.506 ms
12 kbn-b2-pos13-0.telia.net (213.248.64.58) 126.645 ms 119.904 ms 119.708 ms
13 cybercity-01382-kbn-b2.c.telia.net (213.248.78.90) 128.088 ms 127.799 ms *
14 * *
___________________________________
So I'm guessing the civgaming server is turned off and the reason for the DNS failure is because they don't have a 2nd party hosting their dns.
Kody
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:29
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Anyway when the civgaming server comes up again.
Would Rokossovky, Vev, Voltiare join up. I assume that Voltiare, Rokossovky, Vev, HongHu(already joined) should be signed up at least.
Octavian X, Micha, Haon, Alinestra Covelia, and Tassadar(using a different username), should also be signed up. Although I still need to read the forum rules and the chairman ultimately has the final say.
Kody
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:29
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quote:
When the embassy forum starts working perhaps we can do an exchange of the
map screenshots. If one of our factions is compromised by a probe team the
other faction will still be uncompromised. This idea needs to be discussed
in the hive forum first. |
It's an idea, but at the moment it's being mainly used as a stalling technique. Voltaire doesn't want to trade maps yet, but since they have offered we want to keep the offer open and also stall without seeming reluctant.
Kody
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:29
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Just a question.
Is there anyone in the hive that doesn't want to visit the embassy forum at CGN? We may need an offical embassy cross poster if that is the case.
Basically copy the offical posts in the embassy forum to this thread.
Kody
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:29
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Email
I'd say that was OK (instead of ceding control of a unit, it'd be like the
US-UK lend-lease arrangement of WW II)
G.
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All times are GMT. The time now is 05:29.
Apolyton Time is 00:29. |
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24-07-2003 16:31
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