12-07-2003 08:22									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer how to get where, kid?

Do you know how to get all the inner-city youth jobs?

	12-07-2003 08:28									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer back on topic... there's been no communist movement to organize the inner city youth... all such militant movements have been comparatively right wing and they never got anywhere really.

I think the groups you are thinking of were seperatists and civil rights groups. I wouldn't really call them right wing or left wing. But I'm interested in your opinion.

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer maybe, just maybe a socially conservative marxist movement might gain some real meager popularity... but not your breed of marxism

What the hell is a socially conservative marxist?

	12-07-2003 08:31									#63
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Sava:

i am aware of that but even still... let's look at some of the shared beliefs of the NoI, BPP, and Afrikan revolutionary action committee... they all roughly believe that woman must be subservient to men... yeah very liberal of an idea... they all are convinced that homosexuality is a disease of the white man that has infiltrated into a small minority of black males due to rape during slavery... yep... real liberal... need i say more?

and though the BPP was idealistically socialistic, when it came down to it, they, and the NoI, realized they needed to work within a capitalist system and insisted that people start up their own businesses and all that so they were roughly capitalistic in practical matters.

their hatred for republicans is the same as the hatred for republicans that most people here got... this twisted idea that republicans represent rich white men though the republican party platform is a bit closer to representing the views of most people in the city than the democrats are in my opinion.

so yeah, the groups i mentioned (except maybe the ARAC which seems marxist economically) are very far right wing on social issues and moderate on economics... i think it's fair to call them 'right-wing'


thanks

	12-07-2003 08:32									#64
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kidicious:

Weren't the Soviets socially conservative? i dont know... its concievable for there to be economic communists who believe in the traditional role for women, are against homosexuality and abortion, and stress militancy and discipline... look at 1984...

	12-07-2003 08:34									#65
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1. Legalise drugs
2. Regulate firearms
3. Reduce the gap between rich and poor

	12-07-2003 08:34									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer kidicious: Weren't the Soviets socially conservative? i dont know... its concievable for there to be economic communists who believe in the traditional role for women, are against homosexuality and abortion, and stress militancy and discipline... look at 1984...

hehe. ok, we definitely don't want that.

	12-07-2003 08:36									#67
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Kidicious:

no of course not... we'd want to be able to decide what we do with our own money

	12-07-2003 08:38									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger 1. Legalise drugs 2. Regulate firearms 3. Reduce the gap between rich and poor

1. Right on. And sin tax the beejesus out of it.
2. Ehh. Maybe
3. Not through socialism or communism. The real gap that needs to be narrowed IMO is one that addresses future opportuity. Education and job training. Give folks the tools to better their positions.

	12-07-2003 08:40									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Kidicious: no of course not... we'd want to be able to decide what we do with our own money

That's not what the Black Panthers stood for.

quote: The BPP combined elements of socialism and black nationalism, insisting that if businesses and the government did not provide for full employment, the community should take over the means of production. It promoted the development of strong black-controlled institutions, calling for blacks to work together to protect their rights and to improve their economic and social conditions. The BPP also emphasized class unity, criticizing the black middle class for acting against the interests of other, less fortunate blacks. The BPP welcomed alliances with white activists, such as the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) and later the Weathermen, because they believed that all revolutionaries that wanted to change U.S. society should unite across racial lines. This position differed from those taken by many black organizations of the late 1960s, such as the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC), which excluded white members after 1966.

-Encarta Encyclopedia

	12-07-2003 08:41									#70
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quote: i am aware of that but even still... let's look at some of the shared beliefs of the NoI, BPP, and Afrikan revolutionary action committee... they all roughly believe that woman must be subservient to men... yeah very liberal of an idea... they all are convinced that homosexuality is a disease of the white man that has infiltrated into a small minority of black males due to rape during slavery... yep... real liberal... need i say more?

that's precisely why you shouldn't have two political definitions... right/left... those groups are neither "liberal/left" or "conservative/right".

quote: this twisted idea that republicans represent rich white men

... is true... follow not the rhetoric... but the actions. You think Bushies care about you or anyone living in poverty, for that matter? Look at the actions of this president... the tax cuts for rich people... the job-destroying economic policies... don't confuse moral views with socio-economic policy.

	12-07-2003 08:55									#71
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Sava,

He just seems incapable of getting that for some reason. He likes to think Bushy and Malcolm X were soul mates or something.

	12-07-2003 08:56									#72
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Kid:

quote: That's not what the Black Panthers stood for.

actually, i was referring to you saying how you didnt want a socially conservative communist country and i meant no of couse not, we'd want capitalism WITH conservatism not communism with it

anyway, let's take a look at encarta...

quote: insisting that if businesses and the government did not provide for full employment, the community should take over the means of production.

yeah, if... Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, etc. demanded there be full employment... they must be marxists

quote: It promoted the development of strong black-controlled institutions

which included black-owned businesses... the BPP (and NoI) had an attitude of let's get rid of all these jewish (this was before asian) stores and replace them with black-owned ones. it would be a mistake to call that idea socialist.


Sava:

quote: the job-destroying economic policies...

nah i think the democrats got the cake for that... i mean, pro-business policies obviously do result in businesses doing well and hiring more people... if they get fair wages or not though and if they work under good conditions is a different story entirely but objectively, the republican platform does provide for more commercial (non-bureaucratic) jobs

	12-07-2003 08:58									#73
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quote: nah i think the democrats got the cake for that... i mean, pro-business policies obviously do result in businesses doing well and hiring more people... if they get fair wages or not though and if they work under good conditions is a different story entirely but objectively, the republican platform does provide for more commercial (non-bureaucratic) jobs

Here's a homework assignment for you... go look up Clinton's 1993 budget and cross-reference it with unemployment... then compare those figures to Bush... m'kay...

quote: the republican platform does provide for more commercial (non-bureaucratic) jobs

sorry, but the numbers don't agree with you...

	12-07-2003 09:00									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer yeah, if... Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, etc. demanded there be full employment... they must be marxists

In fact, business and govt don't create full employment do they. So 'if' means very little there.

You can't possibly think that Black Panthers were big fans of Hitler. They believed in Equality. Come on. Give us and yourself a break here.

	12-07-2003 09:05									#75
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Kid, haha... i don't think that... Malcolm X and William Jennings Bryant on the other hand... or Louis Farrakhan and Mussolini... Stokely Carmichael... Eldridge Cleaver...

	12-07-2003 09:09									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Kid, haha... i don't think that... Malcolm X and William Jennings Bryant on the other hand... or Louis Farrakhan and Mussolini... Stokely Carmichael and Andrew Jackson... look beyond the race...

Why do you say that Malcolm X didn't believe in equality for all people?

	12-07-2003 09:23									#77
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umm... actually, in all seriousness, he didn't really... not until the Hadj... you got to realize that some of these black nationalists (though not really the ones i listed) can be very hateful... i once encountered one who insisted that all white gay people be slaughtered to prevent the spread of that 'faggot white man disease' to young black children.

	12-07-2003 09:25									#78
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oh and the disease wasn't AIDs... it was homosexuality itself.

	12-07-2003 09:27									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer umm... actually, in all seriousness, he didn't really... not until the Hadj... you got to realize that some of these black nationalists (though not really the ones i listed) can be very hateful... i once encountered one who insisted that all white gay people be slaughtered to prevent the spread of that 'faggot white man disease' to young black children.

The movement was for separation. That doesn't mean that most of them believed that only African American people deserved equality, just that African Americans needed to become independent in order to achieve equality.

	12-07-2003 09:29									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer oh and the disease wasn't AIDs... it was homosexuality itself.

You seem to be caught up with homosexuality. Is that a very important issue for you?

	12-07-2003 09:32									#81
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Kidicious:

i'm just saying... liberals seem to be the champions of gay rights while all the conservatives are against them... so where does that place those on the verge of slaughtering gay people?

	12-07-2003 10:34									#82
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Tell the gang members there are opportunities for killing people in Iraq. Give them 'hoods and turfs in Baghdad, Tikrit, Mosul, Qarbala, wherever, withdraw the occupying troops and let the Crips and Bloods get on with it.

	12-07-2003 10:50									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Kidicious: i'm just saying... liberals seem to be the champions of gay rights while all the conservatives are against them... so where does that place those on the verge of slaughtering gay people?

An insignificant minority. Thank God!

	12-07-2003 10:53									#84
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Lock-ins at youth rec-centers are the solution to gang violence, obviously.

Last edited by Drake Tungsten on 12-07-2003 at 11:07

	12-07-2003 10:58									#85
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Drake:

yet an insignificant minority centered in the inner city...

	12-07-2003 11:05									#86
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It's no coincidence that gang recruitment began skyrocketing in the early to mid 80's when Congress and most of the states increased penalties for adults involved in the drug trade. Not surprisingly, many adults seeking to avoid the harsher penalties began recruiting minors exempt from the new laws to participate more in the drug trade.

Gang recruitment skyrocketed during alcohol prohibition... Too bad so many Americans can't learn from history...

	12-07-2003 11:36									#87
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Berzerker:

then why are gangs down now?

	12-07-2003 13:52									#88
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quote: Originally posted by rah In chicago this week they're starting to install bulletproof video cameras on top of street lights. This will get entertaining.

Ooh, I sense a marketing opportunity for the camera-killer bullet!

	12-07-2003 14:05									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka You can also talk about other countries problems with gangs and violence related to it. MikeH, But that's impossible. At least in the next 100 years it is.. I don't think US wants to become socialist .

damn straight